Why do all intelligent Christians disobey Jesus?

by StoneWall 347 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog


    I reject the bible as THE Word of God, yes. I hope I explained that well enough so that you can see the difference.

    I see it clearly

    I didn't just say misunderstood. The bible has errors. Translation errors, at the least. References and sayings that we've lost the meaning for. And there are errors in context also- Jeremiah 8:8 How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?
    I think its just a matter of which is more important. God can teach people through the Holy Spirit. He doesn't need the bible, nor has the bible always been available. And Jesus IS the Word of God. People did not read his writings. They heard his voice. Which we can still hear now via the Spirit. Ink and paper are certainly a guide, but they are a poor substitute for hearing Jesus' voice.

    Not only is this a rejection. Here you are in the place of judging the bible (God's Word). Do you really hear an audible voice? If not, how does he speak to you and how do you know it's JESUS speaking to you and not your own heart?

    John 5:39 - "You diligently study the scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."

    I'm just a little curious why you would quote something you believe has errors. Anyway. I believe that passage to be true. Jesus is speaking to unbelievers about the Old Testament Law. They think (like the JWs) they can possess eternal life by keeping the Law, apart from faith in (Christ) the gospel of grace. Jesus is saying the OT testifies of Him, whom they reject. I don't reject Jesus. My faith is in Him, not me or my inability to keep the law.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    n a c

    When was Christianity determined to be solely reliant on the scriptures? I know you are quoting Martin Luther, but are you following Luther or of Jesus?

    I wasn't aware I quoted Luther, However, your statement implies a much broader scope to "Sola Scriptura" then intended by the reformers. I agree with Luther (on some things) but, I live by faith (or follow) in the gospel of grace, provided by Christ.

    Don't forget the other four Solas, fide, gratia, Christus, Deo gloria,

    Did the apostles ignore the scriptures, did they reject the word of God?

    Obviously not.

    When the Bible talks about us having the "mind of Christ", what does it mean?

    Wow, that would make a great thread of it's own. The short answer though, would center around grace, vs law keeping/ legalism.

    What practical information is there for you or me in using a word like predestination and pretending we know how it works?

    I don't know what you're getting at here, there are plenty of other words we can use.

    As for the comments on the early church fathers, like Augustine. They did not write Romans 9 and seemed to have had little if any affect on its rendering.



    But we will still die a mortal death, so what is this talk of eternal life?

    For non believers death is the end. Jesus taught that believers would be transformed into heavenly glory at death.

    If Jesus hasn't personal told you about eternal life, perhaps you should check your Bible.

    You have still not offered a third alternative to the black or white choice the Bible offers.

  • tec

    It teaches that you believe in God and his son and gain eternal life OR you don't and you die.


    'Indeed when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law unto themselves, for they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.'

    I think the point of believing in Jesus now (besides the peace it brings) is that He is the resurrection and the life. Belief in him gives us that life (spiritual) in the here and now.

    Sometimes I think that belief in Christ is the first resurrection (or at least it starts now and continues until He comes). So those who believe in Jesus have no fear of the second death because there is no judgment for them.

    So maybe those who are the above mentioned gentiles are included in that, or maybe they're part of the second resurrection and judging of men's hearts by God, whose names will then be written in the book of life.

    But eternal life is open to them as well. (love, mercy, justice, and the scriptures seem to say this)




    A Gentile is anyone who is not Jewish. Jews who have not converted to Christianity do not believe Jesus was the son of God.

    But the choice remains the same, believe in God and his son and gain eternal life OR you don't and you die.

  • tec


    Well... most of the world isn't Jewish.

    As for the choice - are you talking about physical death? Because we all die a physical death, believer or not.


  • exjdub
    Your seem to believe with upmost certainty that "modern" Christians do NOT view the bible as Holy because they do NOT view it as JW do, as infalliable, innerant and such, but that is simply not true.
    Speaking only for myself, as any Christian can only do, I view the bible as very Holy ( holy doesn't mean imprefect or error free by the way as many holy men were imperfect and error prone) because it speaks Of and has in it, the Words and teachings of God and his only Son Jesus.


    You now have opened up quite a dilemma for yourself as a Christian. Which parts of the Bible are very Holy? Which parts are "the Words and teachings of God and his only Son Jesus" as opposed to the parts that are not and just partly holy, or not holy, or stories? If you can pick & choose which parts are holy vs. not holy, how can you say that you are a follower of Christ? Please point to one scripture that says the Bible is Very Holy, or that you don't have to follow The Way if you can figure out an avenue around the teachings? Once again the whole workaround that you have to engage in to be a Christian is just so distasteful to me. If you are going to bring a religion that claims to be The One I would think it would not have so many holes in it to believe. Do you really think that Jesus intended this to be the case?

    2 Timothy 3:16-17 , "All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness...

    This is where you lose me. The Bible is either holy and accurate, or it isn't, or rather I should say that was the way I felt when I believed. That one issue should be a black & white issue if you are a Christian.


  • tec

    I'm just a little curious why you would quote something you believe has errors.

    Because despite these errors, I believe the message of love and mercy and faith in God and his Son comes through. I have never said that I do not respect the bible - I love my NIV translation. It is a holy book, containing writings of (imperfect) men who were inspired by God, the teachings of Christ, the history of Israel, and the history of the early Christians.

    But there are errors. I think its silly not to acknowledge that. Lying pen of the scribes is in there. Translation errors have occurred. Three different words are translated to mean hell, for one. That puts a spin on a doctrine that is much different if we used the original words/meaning. So yes, I believe that THE Word of God is Jesus Christ, first and foremost.

    Most people need the bible to get to Jesus, yes. (Not all people, because the Spirit can direct without it) But then I feel we should keep growing in our faith. Use the bible as a guide and a reminder, but put our faith in Jesus, Himself.

    That's how I feel, and that is what I've done.


  • exjdub


    While I do not agree with your view, I really do appreciate that you seek to understand your own faith and acknowledge some of the core problems. I also respect that you feel resolute in your belief and admire that you try to understand other perspectives. Regards.




    I am talking about the eternal life that Jesus spoke of.

    1. Psalm 16:11
      You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.
    2. Matthew 18:8
      If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
    3. Matthew 19:16
      [ The Rich Young Man ] Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternallife?"
    4. Matthew 19:29
      And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternallife.
    5. Matthew 25:46
      "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternallife."
    6. Mark 10:17
      [ The Rich Young Man ] As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternallife?"
    7. Mark 10:30
      will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternallife.
    8. Luke 10:25
      [ The Parable of the Good Samaritan ] On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternallife?"
    9. Luke 18:18
      [ The Rich Ruler ] A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternallife?"
    10. Luke 18:30
      will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternallife."
    11. John 3:16
      "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternallife.
    12. John 3:36
      Whoever believes in the Son has eternallife, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

    New International Version

    Also explained on Christian sites:

    The choice is simple. Either we put our trust in Jesus and His death for our sins, or we pay that death penalty ourselves - forever. Jesus came to give us heaven. Once you come to His cross and put your total trust in what He did there for you, death is no longer the end, it's just the beginning! All death can do, then, is take you to heaven if you belong to Jesus Christ.

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