Do any of you still believe in 'Hellfire'? heh

by theMadJW 277 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  debator

  Hi Chalam

  I'm sorry I cannot agree with you. Most scholars both past and present recognise "Lazarus and the Divas" as a parable.

  It's true Lazarus is a named person but that doesn't go past the point, that a third of Jesus's presentations are parables and he never told literal stories for people to listen too. He kept his literal words to instructions and example. When it came to stories they were all parables. He may have refered to actual bible stories but he didn't add fresh literal stories to them. He kept to parables in his story telling.

  I find it hard you are saying this story is literal. Which leads me to ask you a few questions.

  You say "side" but the word is "Bosom" how can someone reside in someone bosom? there is the possibility of bosom position when seating at a meal so was lazarus eating lunch in heaven with Abraham in a literal way?

  Since the rich man (divas) can see and call to Lazarus and Abraham can see and talk to the rich man across a "chasm" while one is in heaven and the other in hell. Are you saying then that those in heaven will see those in hell, tortured? Doesn't sound like heaven to me! and those in Hell will get the added pleasure of watching people in heaven having a fun times?

  Can a drop of water on a tongue cool the fires of hell? if not why ask for it? and how could lazarus reach out across a chasm with a drop of water?

  Are you really saying this story (from Luke only) is a literal real happening?

  While the prophets are named they are not in the Parable they are just refered too as those his family had as living jews to listen too biblically.

  You obviously now think Abraham among others are alive here when the bible in hebrews calls them dead until the resurrection how do you justify that contradiction?

  Hebrews 11:13 (New International Version)

  13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.

  Nope I think the logical thought is Jesus is saying a parable and thus there is no contradiction with hebrews.

  I also find it hard to believe you think you are going to heaven and will have Torture TV to watch while at dinner when you are bored?
• 

  designs

  You're asking people whose concept of the Supreme Being involves Masochism and Sadism...........

  They've got to work their way through the paradoxes of Aquinas, Molina, and Calvin first....

  Don't hold your breath to long for an answer.
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  Deputy Dog

  debator

  Jesus used many poetical forms. parables being one, hyperboles as well, Are we really meant to pluck our eyes out rather than think of sinning? Or did he use them to emphasise the points he was making?

  This is a very good point with a very good question. The problem you have is, if you try to hard to symbolize or allegorize, nothing means anything.

  Also it's a two egded sword.

  I take it (the parable, if it is a parable) to mean, hell would be much worse than literal.
• 

  Chalam

  Hello debator and welcome!

  However much symbolism one reads into this account the bottom line is this, do you believe Abraham and Moses are literal people?

  Do you believe Heaven is a literal or only symbolic?

  If you believe all three of these are literal, why would Jesus talk about Hell in similar fashion if it was non-literal?

  Here are some notes from the scholars at the ESV Study bible. You will be happy to read that they too see the account as a parable :)

  Luke 16:22–23 The poor man died and received no burial, in contrast to therich man who was buried. The poor man was carried . . . to Abraham's side(lit., “bosom”), which means he was welcomed into the fellowship of other believers already in heaven, particularly Abraham, the father of the Jewish people. But the rich man went to Hades (the place of the wicked, the dead, or “hell”), a place of torment. That the rich man saw Abraham far off indicates the unbridgeable gulf between heaven and hell. The previous earthly situations of the rich man and Lazarus are completely reversed. As in 13:28, the unbelieving dead seem to have some awareness of the blessedness of believers in heaven. Though this is a parable, and thus it is unclear how far the actual details should be pressed, the story seems clearly to teach that, immediately after death, both believers and unbelievers have a conscious awareness of their eternal status and enter at once into either suffering or blessing.

  Luke 16:26 A great chasm has been fixed by God between heaven and hell so that the fate of the dead is irreversible.

  Blessings,

  Stephen
• 

  designs

  When Non-Jews try to tackle Jewish literature certain misguided conclusions are inevitable.

  Fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible was a millstone around the neck of the defenders of revelation. One has only to look at Dom Calmet's commentaries, Voltaire's handy index for scriptural references to God's vindictiveness, to see how hopeless the task of explaining contradictions and cruelties on fundamentalist presuppositions.

  The Enlightenment did a service to Christianity by forcing the innovation and advancement Reasonable Christianity. Tillotson, Poiret, Cuppe, Mary Huber, Rousseau and others denounced the idea of eternal punishment as incompatible with the love of God. Some took a refuge position that biblical texts about hell were contrived by God as salutary threats which he had no intention of enforcing. The beginning of the Christian community as 'le bon cur'e' saw the shift away from superstitions in Europe. It is one of many reasons why so few Fundamentalist sects exist in Europe but flourished in America.
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  PSacramento

  Was the parable of Lazarus a parable?

  Yes.

  Did Jesus ever desrcibe an event or situation in any parable that did not actuall happen in"real life" or that his audience had no point of reference for?

  Nope.

  So what does the parable mean?

  That was up to each person hearing the parable to decide.

  If one view it as a warning to do good to avoid eternl punishment, then that was how THEY viewed it, if another viewed it as doing Good because the alternative can come back to bite us and those we love on the ass, then that is how they viewed it.

  The point was, do good, it is better than the alternative.
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  theMadJW

  That IS such an example, since Jesus had made it plain that resurrection and judgement would come at a future time.

  However, there WERE those listening that were rich and dressed in purple linen.....
• 

  theMadJW

  Listen!

  AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

  (Cain STILL being BBQed in the Imaginary 'Hellfire' of CHURCHianity...