Do any of you still believe in 'Hellfire'? heh

by theMadJW 277 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hello Mary,

    Whether or not there's a literal Hell, I have no idea. I don't see how a literal (physical) fire could harm a spirit creature

    Of course, the WT indoctrination is most pernicious. The "spirit creature" is pure heresy, Jesus has a physical (resurrection) body and everyone who is resurrected will also have a physical body.

    Luke 24:39 (English Standard Version)

    39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

    Jesus' resurrected body still has the wounds of His crucifixion. It is the same as the 'natural' body yet 'glorified'.

    John 20:20 (English Standard Version)

    20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.

    The resurrection body is an 'advanced topic' but Paul explains a thing or two here 1 Corinthians 15

    Another important thing to remember is that everyone gets resurrected Daniel 12:2, Acts 24:15, Revelation 20:5-7, JWs, Buddhists, Atheists, Christians etc.

    Blessings,

    Stephen

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    So, what have we learned in these 5 pages?

    That there is ample evidence, if you wanna call it that, for BOTH views, which means that either both are wrong or both are right or that God and Jesus like playing mind games or that the writers of thr OT and NT didn't knwo for sure either.

    To me, it's actualy quite simple:

    Follow the teachings of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in life and let Jesus and God decide the rest in death.

    There is too much to do in the here and now to be that concerned about the possible(s) in the everafter.

  • tec
    tec

    PSac is right, of course.

    But in my experience, fear over the doctrine of hell has chased people away and/or impeded them from knowing the love of God. This is just me, though, and others obviously feel differently.

    Mary - Words have been translated incorrectly, and I think that serves as a bias in itself. In the KJV, hell is used in place of Sheol. But Sheol is not described as a place that needs to be feared. So while I may be looking at the scriptures with the opposite bias, I'm trying to see if it is possible, and if that original thinking was biased on its own.

    I am still in the process of doing this, and it is as you say, a very difficult thing to do.

    And as for your question that you don't understand "the purpose or point of a place of eternal torment", hey---we do the same thing to people in this life. Look at someone like Scott Peterson. He'll spend the rest of his life in prison. While he may not be physically tormented, I'm sure he must be mentally tormented every single day. What makes you think God couldn't do the same thing?

    I'm going to describe the problem I have with this particular line of reasoning, though you've probably heard it before.

    We put people in prison for three reasons:

    1) to deter bad behavior to the individual and others learning by example.

    2) to correct bad behavior, and ideally rehabilitate an individual

    3) to protect the innocents that this individual poses a continued threat toward.

    (if there is another reason, I welcome being informed of it)

    But our punishment is not eternal. It may last for the life of the individual - if that individual has proven that he/she is a continued threat against others. Then the person dies, and the punishment is at an end. In an eternal torment, a single person can suffer for one hundred/one thousand/one millions years - and still be no closer to an end to their torment.

    My personal reasoning tells me that we have misunderstood something. Others are more than welcome to their own reasoning. But this is why I began looking at the bible to see if there is a bias to the original view of hell.

    So I'll try and put those three points in perspective with eternal torment:

    1) the consequence of eternal torment (and I'm going to say mental, and not physical) may deter bad behavior. I can see the point and purpose in a deterrent.

    But...

    2) eternal torment is not going to correct anything; nor is it going to rehabilitate anyone - because they can NEVER be free of it.

    3) locking a person into a place of eternal torment might protect the innocent from physical harm. But mental? There are many 'innocent' who would be tormented by the knowledge of such a place of tormented souls existing constantly outside of their paradise - especially if some of those within were loved ones. Myself included.

    Possible that we have simply misunderstood what this 'hell' is actually supposed to be. But I still see no purpose for it to be eternal for any individual.

    Tammy

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Tammy,

    We can't make a call on punishment after death, we just don't know.

    Jesus's parable of Lazarus shows that, in Jesus's view, after The rich man died ( and his family remained) he suffered and that Lazarus went to wheverver Abraham was and that the rich man pleaded with Lazarus.

    Jesus would never has used a parable with incorrect or false images, what message would he be sending if he did that?

    Now, we don't know what the torment is or whether it is a metaphrical one, perhaps it is a symbol of his guilt that is "eating away at his flesh", only Jesus knows.

  • tec
    tec

    PSac - We can't make a call on punishment after death, we just don't know.

    True. But we can try and discuss our thoughts on it - even though I completely trust that God will make the right and just decision, regardless of what I or anyone else thinks is right and just.

    And since I mess up all the time, that thought is comforting in itself.

    Tammy

  • theMadJW
    theMadJW

    There are NO COMMAS in the Greek.

    Thus, in view of the REST of the Bible, not to mention the REST of Jesus' teaching, the 'comma' should go after "today"- "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise!" Or, in today's lingo "I tell you here and now..." In other words a FIRM PROMISE.

    Also, Jesus WASN'T in paradise that day- HE WAS DEAD, DEAD, DEAD...FOR 3 DAYS!

    STOP thinking in churchese!

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    True. But we can try and discuss our thoughts on it - even though I completely trust that God will make the right and just decision, regardless of what I or anyone else thinks is right and just.
    And since I mess up all the time, that thought is comforting in itself.

    Amen sweetheart, amen to that .

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin
    MadJW:


    Post 260 of 260
    Since 9/13/2009

    There are NO COMMAS in the Greek.

    Thus, in view of the REST of the Bible, not to mention the REST of Jesus' teaching, the 'comma' should go after "today"- "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise!" Or, in today's lingo "I tell you here and now..." In other words a FIRM PROMISE.

    Also, Jesus WASN'T in paradise that day- HE WAS DEAD, DEAD, DEAD...FOR 3 DAYS!

    STOP thinking in churchese!

    My reply: Ignore the comma either way. Truly I tell you you will be with me in paradise. #1 this man blows away the WT's two classes since he died before Jesus and was promised to be with Jesus...wherever Jesus would be.

    #2 Jesus guaranteed this man a place in paradise without any sort of prolonged repentance, jumping thru hoops, registering in an org..etc

    And, you may want to look at how the NWT places the comma in all instances except that one-Before the today. Search your trusty ol CD. The WT places it their on the circular logic of its own doctrine.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Or do this, go get your Comprehensive Concordance (not on the CD) and look for the word 'truly'. It shows the word following 'truly' and you will see only in Luke 23:43 does the rg place the comma after truly. Hmm, wonder why???

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Wasting your breath on a troll Isaac...

    But thanks for the point.

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