Is Ray Franz still living?

by hungry4life 72 Replies latest jw friends

  • Dogpatch

    Hi LDH,
    Yes, it is Ray, with correct postmark and all. He had sent the same thing out to Kent a few months ago, which just pissed Kent off and he took off anything favorable to Ray on his site as far as I know.

    The free chapter was used on several sites courtesy of the Beacon website for years. God knows how many people it helped, or at least encouraged them to get the book. I personally don't care, except that some who read the "free" chapter of Ray's book benefitted a lot from it. In some places of the world it is almost impossible to purchase his book. If you don't have a credit card, you won't get it in many countries, and there are no local distributors. That's why I put free versions of most of the things I write and sell on my website, such as my "Thus Saith" book, even in Spanish.

    To me it seems like shooting yourself in the foot, but it's his decision. I respect the man either way!

  • sleepy

    I'm not sure exactly is right or wrong on this issue but,
    Haveing an excerpt from his book is not the same as printing the entire book.
    It was reading an extract on Randy's site that first gave me information that helped make my decision to leave the "truth"
    This in turn made me want to read the whole book.
    If I had nevver read the extract I might never have read the book as I wouldn't have known the tone or attitude of the writer or even that it existed.
    I think that printing small parts of the book can do little harm to Ray finacialy , in fact it is free advertising for him.
    It made me go and buy the full book.
    Music and computer mags are always giving away free CDs with songs of albums or demo of video games , the makers want this as it gets people to buy the whole thing, which otherwise they would not take a chance on buying.
    Also as a witness who preached freely and helped peole into the org dont we become hypocrites if we don't freely ofer to help them out?

    Maybe there was a lack of communication between Randy and Ray and he didn't know it was on the site , maybe after discussion with Franz an arangment can be made.

  • teejay

    Thanks, Randy, for that last bit of information. It doesn't make sense to me that Ray would make this decision but like you said, it's *his* to make. I think it was silly for kent to get mad like he did -- just comply with the man's wishes!! -- but then... that's kent.


    You know you my boy, but I think you're a tad off base for thinking that Ray "owes" anybody anything. If I had to make a list of all the people who influenced me to become/stay a Witness all those years, I can guarantee you that Ray would be somewhere near the bottom of the second page. By then I'd have a hard time blaming him.

    It's only a theory of mine so I could be way wrong, but nearly every one who becomes a JW becomes one for selfish reasons... for what they can get: Life in paradise... An inside tract to God... Special knowledge unknown to 99.95% of the world... A good chance of living through the end of this "system"... a chance to see a dead relative again. Whatever it is, it can hardly be called a truly altruistic motive. WE (and THEY) all expected a pay-off down the line.

    Blaming Ray for one's own selfishness doesn't make much sense and I'm sorry, but I can't go along with it.


  • MadApostate


    It is his right to choose.
    NO SHIT???

    Is "Utopian Reformist" one of Marvin Shilmer's posting accounts?

    Both of you introduce "OBVIOUS GIVENS" into your arguments as if the person you are writing to somehow disagrees with such.

    OBVIOUSLY, RF has the right to exercise the full extent of his legal rights, JUST AS I HAVE THE RIGHT to judge this particular action as being JUST PLAIN STUPID from a business standpoint.

    You forget, I am employed by the Judicial Branch, United States Courts in the District of Massachusetts. I have access to a variety of libraries, software, tools etc.. I have access to WestLaw, Lexis-Nexis and a host of others, as well as Supreme Court Decisions and published opinions. I don't have to be an atorney, or hire one to do research!
    While I don't doubt that you work for some part of the system you mention, I believe that this makes at least 3 different locations you have referred to since you have been posting here.

    As for having access to all those legal libraries, SUCH is meaningless if you don't have the ability to interpret what you read.

    I seem to recall that this "UR" character conveniently showed up on the Board just aboutthe same time that Bowen was prepping everyone for the announcement of the BERRY LAWSUIT filing.

    I also seem to recall that your appearance was followed with an amazing announcement that you were an employee of the fed court system who had access to all you restate above, WITH THE ALLEGATION that you had seen HUNDREDS of LAWSUITS in the system which had been filed against the WTS.

    Then, when I asked you to PROVE IT, all the sudden you can't do anythin because it might cost you your job.

    WHAT A JOKE!!! Like posting here all day long is OK, but to provide PROOF of your wild-ass claims is too much.

    As ANYONE who has done any amount of research knows, if there were HUNDREDS of lawsuits filed against the WTS, there would be trails on the internet from their path through the court system, as well as News Articles.


  • GermanXJW

    When I get to know of a JW webmaster contacted by the WTS to put off their copyrighted stuff I think: "It's their right but they are idiots."

    When I get to know of a anti-JW website contacted by the WTS to put off their copyrighted material (i.e. Pay Attention) I think "It's their right - and I know why they enforce it.

    I understand why Kent Steinhaug is mad.

    It is also Ray Franz' right - but a bad taste in the mouth stays. He has lost a bit of my admiration today.

  • Simon

    I think it's sad in a way that he's done that if for no other reason than I'm sure it will hurt sales! I buy lots of books after reading a "sample chapter".

    There is always the copyright and control issue - if you don't actively enforce your intellectual property rights then I do believe you loose some of the claim to them and this may be all he has to leave for his wife as far as I know.

    I'm just glad he put the effort into writing the books in the first place - they have certainly helped me.

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    Mad Apostate:

    First of all, I have only mentioned working for one employer! Go back and re-read my earliest posts, master of cenility! I have only posted my location as District of Massachusetts, in Boston. Another Judicial Branch employee saw my post awhile ago, and we corresponded via e-mail, since he was an employee also in the District of Utah.

    I have been verified and identified, over and over. Who are you?

    Secondly, yes, all those sources and libraries are in fact available to me at any time. I simply enter the library, sit down and begin reading. Or, I could load software containing all Federal Rules and Decisions, etc... The point was IT WAS NOT NECESSARY TO UNDERSTAND THAT RAY FRANZ IS ATTEMPTING TO EXERCISE HIS RIGHTS!

    Now, about Marvin Shilmer, never heard of him. About the BERRY case, I only became interested because I stumbled onto "" through a search engine and began reading the articles.

    In order to confirm what I read, I used the PACER (Public Access Court Electronic Records) System to query for cases involving either defendants or plaintiffs as "Watchtower". And I told everyone what I found. Hundreds of lawsuits, ranging in categories from liability, tort, fraud, and many others, including molestation!

    The ONLY information I did NOT supply was material taken from actual court documents on archive, since that would lead to an investigation and my firing. The other member who posts here form the Judicial Branch also confirmed it by stating in his post that "UR is correct, we would be abusing our position by posting court documents". Furthermore, many of the WTBS cases are settled and "sealed" preventing disclosure which is why the majority are not known by the public, unless an insider who can risk it all blows the cover by supplying the media with such documents. Understand? Whistleblowing is risky!

    Have you ever been to Federal Court? If you have, then you know the clerk's office is NOT allowed to advise you or inform you or counsel you in any way, only supply you with blank forms and help you look cases up in the Public PACER computer. This is the 3rd time I have posted this explanation. Are you deaf and dumb?

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    Here you go King JackAss of Stupidom!

    Here is the original thread and get educated, buffoon!


    How ironic Utopian, I also work for the U.S. Courts as a Bankruptcy SM!

    I've never bothered to research any Witness material as far as court cases on PACER. I'll take a moment on my lunch break to check the national case party index.

    For the rest of you, Utopian is right about his pulling case information and posting it here. It would be misuse of his position.

    Incidentally, you may not be able to find many cases at the Federal courthouse you visit, because it will only contain information for the district you reside in. The other alternative, if you want to spend a few $$, would be to get a PACER account by contacting them at 1-800-676-6856. There is no charge to obtain a login/password, however the data you query costs you 7 cents per page (appx. 60 lines of text on the screen). Its not much if you are really interested.

    Tell them you want to have your account work on the National Case Party Index, as well as for all of the districts of New York, Pennsylvania and perhaps other districts you are interested in.

    If you find a case on the National Case Party Index you want to get more details on (such as to view any images of actual documents), you will need to call that 800 number again and tell them to activate your account for that district.



  • MadApostate
    ... And I told everyone what I found. Hundreds of lawsuits, rangingin categories from liability, tort, fraud, and many others, including molestation!

    The ONLY information I did NOT supply was material taken form actual court documents on archive, since that would lead to an investigation and my firing.


    You didn't supply ANYTHING except an unbelievable ALLEGATION substantiated only by another posting account. Hell, if that's proof, then CT Russell was an Illuminati!

    HUNDREDS of lawsuits, but all the documentation is "sealed"???

    HORSESHIT!!! The filings, etc of any such suits were accessible to the Press (and general public) and IF HUNDREDS existed, there would be all kinds of info on the internet despite any subsequent "sealing".

    Hell, the Conspiracy Theorists tell a better tale than you!!!

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    MAD Cow Disease:

    Did you read through the thread? I will make this my FINAL attempt to reason with you, and I will attempt to hold my frustrations. Now, once again, just because there are hundreds of cases involving the Watchtower as either a plaintiff or defendant, does not mean ALL of them are public.

    The catholic church in numerous dioceses has agreed to settle and seal many litigations concerning fraud, molestation, embezzlement, etc.. Contrary to your aspersions, the media is NOT interested in everything the WTBS does, or is accused of doing in courts of law.

    Why does "silentlambs" exist? Because no one is paying attention, YET. This dateline special that has been talked about has still NOT aired. Why? Probably for some of the same reasons I gave you about not "cutting-and-pasting" text from court documents, like Judges Opinions, Summaries, Orders, etc...

    If somebody ever reported that to a court, I would be investigated and discovered and removed, if not prosecuted.

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