Is Ray Franz still living?

by hungry4life 72 Replies latest jw friends

  • dmouse

    I have nothing against Ray, and I have bought a copy of his book: C of C. I also know nothing of his personal circumstances and it may not be his decision to remove copyright information.

    However, there seems to be just a hint of hypocrisy in our response to Randy's news.
    Ask yourself - how do we respond when the WBTS ask people to remove extracts of their literature from sites because of copyright?

  • ILoveUncleBruce

    I don't blame Ray one bit for wanting what money he makes from the books, etc. He was cast out of his home and had no means for survival. He and is wife have to have a place to live and food in their stomach.

    Ray did a great service for all of us. Give the man a break, will ya?


    Edited to change have to had.

  • Francois

    Please note that if you don't enforce your copyright rights, you lose them. That's one reason why Coca-Cola is so sensitive about their logo. If you really want to be on the business end of Coke's legal department, use something that even resembles their logotype, and you'll have a lawsuit so far up your keister you'll never get it out.

    An example of a logo becoming public property because of a lack of company enforcement of its rights, think of memiograph. It used to be a company logotype. But every one started calling every copy made by that process, no matter the name of their equipment, a memiograph and that company didn't do anything about it and lost their right to enforce their exclusive rights to it.

    Same with a copyright on a book. If Ray lets anybody and everybody use it in any way they like, he looses his rights to his own work and all the proceeds he could have enjoyed from it. It's easy to refer to all this as "copyright bullshit" when it's not one of your few means of support - and that of your wife who is virtually guaranteed to outlive you (Are you going to buy a book written by Mrs. Franz? She's a sweet lady, but she can't write and has no marketable skills.)

    Always depends on whose ox is being gored, doesn't it? I think it's a grave and total injustice to Ray to expect him to let anyone use his work in any way they like. It's sort of like all those people who win the lottery. They always seem to be so amazed when all their long lost "cousins" start popping up out of the woodwork, wanting some of the proceeds.

    I think we ought to cooperate with Ray, helping him protect one of his few means of support. When he left the Borg after 30-something years, the bastards gave him $10K. TEN THOUSAND after all those yeats, and the WTBTS with all that money. The bastards.


  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    At 80 years of age, and after 30 years of WTBS service, do you honestly think this man has any of the following:

    Social Security Income? Disability Income?

    It is amazing that after leaving the WTBS, he decided to publish any books PERIOD. Rather than immediately establish a source of income, he continued writing, doing what he does best. Its helped thousands of people.

    Now, if he needs to take advantage of his LEGAL copyrights at this stage of his life, for ANY reason, it is his RIGHT to do so and without question.

    If you enjoyed publishing and displaying Ray Franz's literature, excerpts from his writings, audio speeches and anything else, be GRATEFUL and THANKFUL for the amount of time you received, FREE of charge.

    All of the material was his own personal work, and not owned by anyone else, PERIOD. Give the man a break. People work in the US Government for years, witnessing scandals, coverups, frauds, abuses and corruption and NEVER write a book or reveal anything.

    They quietly retire and collect their pensions and enjoy their benefits in peace. Quit whining and write your own books!

    If you just count the number of posts some of you have in this forum, and the variety of experiences you have told, you would already have several chapters finished, and have your own "work" in progress.

    Let the guy have his work and enjoy what's left in peace! Grow Up!

  • MadApostate

    As usual, the RayF Worshippers miss the point in their rush to demonstrate who worships him most and best.

    Noone questions RF's property rights to his pubs, nor his deserving every penny he can get from such.

    However, the posting of excerpts and other info and publicity about he and his books on high traffic websites like Randy's does far more to sell his books than anything he himself is currently doing. If not for all the free publicity that HE RECEIVES from other's webpages, his sales would bottom out.

    If Randy received such a letter, its likely that other's did also, but just don't want to say so.

    What everyone should do is when you take down the pages that he demanded, ALSO take down every other page that provides free publicity to his books. After a few months of slowing book sales, RF's poor judgement may be enlightened.

    PS: To Randy and other website owners. For every one of Ray's books you sell, you probably motivate 25 people to purchase his books, but they then go to Amazon (or other retailers) to make that purchase.

    RF is biting the very hand that is currently feeding him.

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist


    You're missing the MAIN POINT. Whether his decision to attempt to enforce his copyrights turns out to be an advantage or disadvantage, it it HIS RIGHT to choose, for better or for worse.

    If his letter ends up decreasing book sales, then so be it. If he has to write another one to retract this letter, then so be it.

    One thing is certain, if the man does NOT possess business savvy or a contemporary commerical "acumen" of sorts, it is because he spent his life in the WTBS. Let's see how you would fair in business with the same circumstances?

    THINK before you REPLY!

  • MadApostate


    No, it is you that doesn't understand, just like others here that think they are legal experts 'cause they know where the courthouse is.

    You overlook my acknowledgment of RF's "property rights" contained in my second paragraph, and the OBVIOUS implication that every person has the legal right to exercise such. (Someone who actually has the legal knowledge that you don't, but think you do, would have understood such.)

    Then you further are unable to understand that the balance of my post questions the "business soundness" of RF's demand for Randy (and probably others) to remove EXCERPTS from his/their sites.

    Randy recently posted a good article on COPYRIGHT LAW. I suggest that you find it and read it. As a copyright holder, RF DOES NOT exercise total control over every EXCERPT from his publications.

  • biblexaminer


    I am not sure what you are asking, but feel free to email me at

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    Mad Apostate:

    AGAIN, whether RF has true legal entitlements, or limitations to the extent of current copyright statutes, the BOTTOM LINE, FINAL ANSWER, MAIN POINT, THEME, SUBJECT, FOCUS, CENTER, CONCEPT, IDEA or anything else your "trained legal mind" can decipher is this:

    It is his right to choose. Perhaps his letter has no solid legal foundation whatsoever! After all, for years he has been quoted all over the web, right? THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE I AM BRINGING TO YOUR ATTENTION. I DO NOT NEED A Juris Doctor TO UNDERSTAND THAT HE HAS A RIGHT TO ACT...PERIOD!

    Now do you understand what I have been saying? Furthermore, if I needed to brush up legally, you certainly are not of the caliber to make such assessments because you read an article on Randy's web-site.

    You forget, I am employed by the Judicial Branch, United States Courts in the District of Massachusetts. I have access to a variety of libraries, software, tools etc.. I have access to WestLaw, Lexis-Nexis and a host of others, as well as Supreme Court Decisions and published opinions. I don't have to be an atorney, or hire one to do research!

  • LDH

    Randy, AND OTHERS do you have concrete proof that Ray sent you this letter? How do you know it wasn't a Jdub posing as Ray? His address is easy enough to get.

    Just a question.

    If Ray can enforce is copy, why can't the WTBS do something about sites that quote THEM? Like


    This site has an extensive explanation of WHY they are not infringing the copy-write (lol) law.

    Randy, if you have proof that Ray did send you this letter, I would write him and tell him that VERY FEW people want to read the whole damn book on a computer screen or printout. The segments are whetting people's appetite to buy the book.

    Poor Ray. When I have spoken with him this past year, he has sounded VERY TIRED. I hope he's not getting lawyer run-around.


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