Mill Hill Disfellowshippings
regarding Phil Harris, I always got on with him - he was a lovely chap. His wife is seriously ill, or was. Very sad. My best wishes to them, if you or any on here are still in touch with them.
the modern talmud of the WT
That sir, is the BEST description I have read or heard yet!
I've been reading this thread over the past couple of days, digesting the full import of what went on over there and all I can say is wow, welcome to the board. Please keep sharing your experiences and thoughts with us.
Do you remember Adrian Robinson. He left the bethel and renounced his eldership in the name of love.(Actually he was given little choice)
The price you pay for follwing in love with a weak sister. Bet his no longer associated with the organisation.
Incidently you are a very lucky man you have your freedoom and you still got a loving wife. You can also( maybe) have something no betherlite can have. A KID
Good luck you are a man of action and action is necessary to defeat the daily assults of fear and worry you may have . I would reccomend" Norman Vincent Peale" his books condition your mind to be positive and enthusiastic about life. All this is supportrd by his belief in God.
I just wanted to make an observation about another thing I was thinking of, and that in my opinion is simply not true, was the oft-repeated idea that "JW's love Jehovah". But in my experience, and again, may I stress, this is only my opinion, that is simply not true. I simply do not believe that "JW's love Jehovah". If anyone reads this, and gets offended, I truly truly apologise - but I just felt that since somenone raised it, it would only be proper to tell you my personal observations and opinion.
The reason that I hold this opinion is this - the Jehovah that JW's love is a heavily sanitised idol that each one of them has constructed in their heads. It is not the Jehovah we find in the Bible. I remember giving a talk once, where I asked the question - Is it right to do something if it goes against your conscience? I remember the head-shaking. Then, I asked is it right to murder? I remember the head-shaking. Then I asked, so how is it ok to murder your son? Silence. Then I said, in the Bible, God tries to get Abraham to go against his conscience - to murder someone. And then I listed a list of things in the Bible that are against "a Bible-trained conscience", which is one of the primary things the WT pushes. The Jehovah we find in the Bible constantly violates the "Bible-trained conscience." He tells people to commit acts of genocide, murder, assasination, accepts deceit and land-robbery. Yet, how many Jehovah's Witnesses love that Jehovah?
In this country, we used to have an advert for Werther's Original sweets. It's some kind of toffee, I think. Anyway, there is a grandfather in it, and he is always patting the child on the head, giving him sweets, and generally being a sweet old man. I, after so many years dealing with the publications and the teaching, believe that this is what JW's are doing to God - they are constructing an idol of him, an image which they worship. The majority of JW's want God to be that grandfather - sweet, kind, emotional, gentle. They worship that image. Others recognise that it isn't the case, so they like the "fire and brimstone" God. Yet in reality, both parties love an image of God, where they have cherry-picked the bits that appeal to their respective tastes. The reality is, that if God exists, which I believe he does, he is ruthless and compassionate, kind and stern, loving and harsh, angry and calm, he is a dangerously passionate person. In Ezekiel, he spends half the time fulminating in rage against Israel, saying he is going to annihilate them, then says, but no, I love you so much! That is the picture the Bible paints of Jehovah. How many Witnesses love that Jehovah? The dangerous, unpredictable, I don't care how hard you work because everything you do is not good enough to meet my standards, Jehovah?
There is so much more I could say, so many scriptures I could and have used in the past to show why I think this, but I am sure the majority of them are well-known to you all, and that there is little point!
I have said it before, and I will again. In my opinion, the vast majority of JW's are Bible-illiterate. They do not know the God of the Bible at all - they beliive in the image they have constructed, which depends on what personality they have, and which WT articles they set more credence by. It is that image they love - not the God they find in the Bible. And I believe that this is just as true of me, as it is of them, or the vast majority of religious people. We are not honest enough to face things squarely when it comes to God. That's my opinion, and I know that it probably wrong!
Again, if I have offended anyone, please forgive me.
Love to all
Human beings are as selfish as the rest of creation, and probably more so. Humans kill for their young, and sometimes humans kill their young too! Humans kill for things no animal has ever killed for. A bear kills to eat. Humans kill to have extra.
Without a doubt the general population of Witnesses is just as prone to this behavior as the rest of humankind. My own experience tells me I find as much selfishness among the Witness population as the society in general.
Paulapollos, I can’t agree with you more with your take on Jehovah’s personality. Personally, I’ve ceased to believe in the god of the bible – for me, that personage is no more realistic than the gods invented by the ancient Greeks or Romans. At least they divvied up those personalities into multiple gods whereas the OT god suffers from a severe case of multiple personality disorder. That god is primarily fear-inspiring and proud of it – to me, that appeals only to the most negative and primal aspects of the human condition and I personally find that very difficult to respect or have any faith in.
I also believe that due to belief in this god of the bible, a lot of judgmental and negative behavior is sanctioned and applauded - not only among the witnesses but society in general. Needless to say, since my JW exit a few years ago my beliefs have undergone a metamorphosis and it’s an ongoing process.
Pauappallos thank you for sharing your thoughts. I agree with you that the Watchtower encourages a selfish attitude towad the future. I describe it as materialistic, being concerned with the physical things rather then spiritual . If I could just add one thought to supplement those you shared -
Here is a scripture about a future hope that is often read by Witnesses and shared in their door to door work -
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” (Rev 21:1-4)
When a JW read this or shares this, what is the focus? It generally is the part about no more tears, pain or death. That's not a particularly bad thing to desire but I find it interesting that the part about God living with his people is continually overlooked. The focus is always on the material and not the spiritual. A typical JW has no real desire for such intimacy with God. They are content to live in a paradise earth with "the anointed" as their mediators before a distant God. It is a similar setup to what they have today except "the anointed" have moved.
Consider a typical JW presentation which begans with a publisher showing the householder a picture of "paradise earth" and saying, "wouldn't you like to live in a world like this?" [Allow for response] "What part of this appeals to you most?" The focus is on the material, having your own home, plenty of good food, and a pet lion. :-) If you believe in the Word of God, there are so many innumerable blessings that we can enjoy today through Him. JW's are told these things are not for them. They are taught to hope for the future but even then they are deprived of the things we are promised in the here and now.
They have no desire to be "anointed" and to have the spiritual things of God because they have been indoctrinated to long for the things in the material realm. Hence they equate their earthly lusts as having an "earthly hope". This causes them to reject the Bread of Life for perishable earthly bread - all encouraged by Watchtower leadership.
I would like to say that every single thing you said on your post is very close to my opinion, regarding these matters.
It is this fundamental focus on the self, and their bodily desires, that has blinded the organisation and has led to all kinds of weird and strange doctrines, including the literal 144,000, limited partakers, the absolutely disgusting idea that the blood of jesus applies to the great crowd/os in one way, but the vital body of jesus doesn't - frankly, the lack of Biblical knowledge, and the complete lack of interest shown there, is another indicator that it is the "effort = reward" system that the WT has foisted onto Witnesses that has robbed them of all the things they can have right now. no wonder they don't understand the whole "great crowd in heaven" thing!
Warm love to all
I never thought of how each JW visualizes Jehovah's qualities. The truth is that Jehovah God isn't so sweet and kind and loving (per the Bible).
BTW, PP, how did you get to know about this site???