Farewell to all

by Amazing 99 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  teejay

  Didn't like my boxing analogy, eh Ginny? Now that *is* a pity.

  I'm devastated. I thought it was hilariously apropos, considering Amazing's announced departure before AMNESIAN was allowed to respond to the seven threads he started over the issue. I couldn't help but notice the glaring absence of any comment from you of that fact. Interesting.

  Oh, well. To say the very least I'm shocked at your reaction – your lack of appreciation for what is clearly fine, hyperbolic satire with a sporting twist – but I will work hard to overcome it. I rather like my chances, truth be told. As a matter of fact, I sense my depression lifting even now.
  --------------------------------------

  Masterji,

  Damn, but don't you ask profound questions?!! Alas, I have no answers for they are clearly beyond my reach. Time will tell us, I'm thinking, and I'm looking forward to the answer Father Time provides. Aren't you?

  I'd like to offer one opinion, though, about that man Solomon. When it came to women, that pimp hung out with servant girls that he could easily dominate and rarely met a woman of training or sophistication. The view from here tells me that AMNESIAN is no mere servant girl and could have surely taught him a thing or two.

  Pleased to make your acquaintance, Masterji.

  Peace,
  tj
• 

  Julie

  Hi Ginny,

  From Teejay's quote you included the words:

  :This argument, for the lack of a better term, isn't about individuals

  In the thread where Teejay posted this, this statement rings true. It is the subsequent posts from Amaing that changed all that though. It is in this light (Amazing's subsequent posts and their tone) that actually makes the boxing "analogy" pretty apropriate, IMO. As you know I am no Teejay cheerleader. Just wanted to point out how early in the "discussion" (which quickly became "all-about-me" re: Amazing) that was was from.

  Frankly I am very disappointed (but not shocked) with the way things have turned out. If anyone were taking bets I'd wager Amazing will monitor the site for Amnesian's forthcoming post but pride will likely prevent a reply, well pride and inability. Too bad. Many here look up to him, let us hope they do not follow his example of "honest" exchange.

  Warmest regards to you Ginny,
  Julie
• 

  teejay

  Look Ginny, let me break something down for you... if I can.

  I think I understand your post here even though it is missing your usual meticulous dissection of my each and every word, syllable and punctuation mark. By quoting my words from the other thread, I think you were hoping to point out an inconsistency between what I said there and what I've said here. My gargantuan task now is to show you that if there is a conflict, it exists only in your mind.

  Amazing stood to defend a particular viewpoint with AMNESIAN contributing to his thread by advancing a view different enough from his to allow for spirited and meaningful debate. The discussion that followed was easily the most dominant one for several days as I'm sure you remember.

  What some (including you and Amazing) seem to have mistakenly seen in the ensuing dialog was a test of wills and personal intellect, thinking that the debate took on a personal equation with AMNESIAN "winning" and Amazing "loosing." You both missed the point and I tried to relieve you of your delusion with the quote you offered above. I think Amazing, for good reason, especially felt that way or otherwise he would not have made several attempts hence to quietly remove himself from the dialog, but I digress.

  In time others rallied to show their support/agreement for either side of the argument. It is in their doing this that the true nature of the debate can be seen. Clouding the essence of the debate (for some) may have been that several of those offering support for AMNESIAN's argument were women; those on Amazing's 'side' were men... notably former elders. At this point the argument seemed to take on a female/male, AMNESIAN/Amazing connotation. Nothing could be further from reality.

  Indeed, the quote of mine from the other thread that you offered above was my way of saying that either Amazing or AMNESIAN (or BOTH) could be replaced others who had stepped up to defend the dominant views, and the validity of both viewpoints would have remained. However, based on the presentation of the arguments, few doubted which argument, based on the history and testimony of too many contributors – even former elders who spoke in support of AMNESIAN's viewpoint – who had entered the fray. It became clear that AMNESIAN had the more compelling argument.

  No, the debate was not about the two major participants but about the ideas they represented that had forcefully sprung to life on the board. Therefore I, in a literary flight of fancy, decided to give life to the opposing ideas, having AMNESIAN and Amazing stand as representative of those. When you think about it, it's not uncommon to see ideas given life as living beings. Righteousness is seen riding on a white horse, death on a black one, scales of justice, etc.

  Sorry you missed the import of the original debate between AMNESIAN and Amazing allowing yourself to see it as a personal contest. I'm equally disappointed that you missed the revelance of that sublime and utterly fitting piece of fluff I penned above. A pity on both counts.
• 

  teejay

  btw, Julie, you are *really* beginning to scare me. I see you slipping down that terrible slope of becoming a true "teejay groupie." If that is not what you want, may I suggest you find something to help you get a grip and then hang on? Enjoyed your post, you fine thang, you!!
• 

  Julie

  Oh Teejay, you worry needlessly.

  I really did mean what I said. The quote Ginny provided was from early on in the whole debacle that ensued. It started out a cebate on issues and Amazing turned it into a personal thing, a vehichle of his imagined martrydom if you will. Anyone disagreeing with this assessment need merely go back and look at the subsequent posts Amazing made and the inflammatory expressions he used to describe it.

  I marvel how anyone can hold him in the same high esteem they once may have after watching this sad, self-pity drenched saga that played out before our eyes.

  I told you before, I can agree with anyone who I think is right, no matter how I may have disagreed with that person (in this case you) in the past. It's this matter of Objectivity. I try to achieve it daily. That fact that I can agree with you and a few others from time to time tells me I am coming along alright on this goal.

  Regards,
  Julie, who assures Teejay, there is nothing to fear.....at least not for the moment
• 

  teejay

  I marvel how anyone can hold him in the same high esteem they once may have after watching this sad, self-pity drenched saga that played out before our eyes.

  "Every hero becomes a bore at last." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
• 

  outnfree

  Good-bye, Amazing!

  And thank you for the good work you have done here, behind the scenes and likely will continue to do on behalf of the ex-JW community.

  I hope to see you around, sometime!

  outnfree

  When the truth is found to be lies
  and all the joy within you dies ... -- Darby Slick, Somebody to Love
• 

  GinnyTosken

  Teejay,

  I thought it was hilariously apropos, considering Amazing's announced departure before AMNESIAN was allowed to respond to the seven threads he started over the issue. I couldn't help but notice the glaring absence of any comment from you of that fact. Interesting.

  I am interested in issues, Teejay, not in the personalities involved. I trust adults to settle personal differences between themselves without my meddling.

  What's sad to me is that we're back to some of the very same issues raised in the JanH vs. Riz discussions. I dislike your boxing analogy for the very same reasons I disliked your "Epilogue."

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=7120&site=3&page=1

  Your boxing analogy is biased and akin to propaganda.

  What some (including you and Amazing) seem to have mistakenly seen in the ensuing dialog was a test of wills and personal intellect, thinking that the debate took on a personal equation with AMNESIAN "winning" and Amazing "loosing" [sic].

  I can't speak for Amazing. I clearly stated what I saw and am annoyed at your presuming to tell me what I seem to have "mistakenly" saw. I made no mention of wills, intellect, winners or losers; my focus was on the battle mentality itself:

  From what I see, the issue at the heart of this is getting muddied by the battle mentality--Amazing vs. Amnesian, elders vs. rank and file, men vs. women, etc.

  You assured me that I totally missed a crucial point--that this discussion wasn't about individuals but about the relative power (and the responsibility/culpability that is connected with it) of various members of the WTS. Now Julie tells me that your statement no longer applies--"subsequent posts from Amaing [sic] . . . changed all that though."

  You assure me once again that "nothing could be further from reality" than an Amazing/Amnesian connotation, yet you use Amnesian and Amazing figuratively to represent two sides of an argument, presuming that posts by others were intended to show support/agreement for one side of the argument or the other. (I hope you did not include me in these "others." I clearly stated that I was looking for the truth between the poles.) Your analogy fosters black-and-white thinking and says that "Amazing's" arguments are weak, whining, and cowardly.

  Which is it, Teejay? Is Julie right? Has this turned into a personal thing? Are you more interested in the issues and arguments, or are you more interested in toppling Amazing from what Julie perceives as a pedestal of high esteem and exposing his "sad, self-pity drenched saga"?

  It was not my intent to take Amazing's side in all this. I tried to wave all of the personal stuff away when I posted to the "Exposing Elders" thread. I was slow to join the thread because I disliked the personal issues tangled up in it. I shared my own viewpoint and perspective, hoping to add something to the discussion. When Amazing posted to say that I had expressed his sentiments exactly, I was surprised. My views and Amazing's on other subjects have been more likely to clash than to agree.

  Julie,

  I don't like name-calling. To assume you know the intent and motivation of any person other than yourself is a cognitive error. If a person explains his intent, I feel civility demands that I take that person at his word unless I can offer proof to the contrary.

  I realize that I can only choose my own behavior--not yours or Teejay's. Each of you must do what you think best in this situation. If you truly value objectivity, personalities won't matter in the discussion of elder culpability.

  Ginny

  P.S. This is a working weekend for me, and I need to give sleep priority over JW.com. I won't post again until Monday evening at the earliest.

  Når katten er borte, danser musene på bordet.
• 

  Julie

  Hi Ginny,

  You said:

  If you truly value objectivity, personalities won't matter in the discussion of elder culpability.

  Agreed my dear, agreed. However, it was Amazing and NO ONE ELSE who turned this into a personal battle. Amnesian presented her collective rebuttal. Amazing tossed out a few allegations and promised a comprehensive reply soon.

  As you may have noticed everything we've had from him since has been about everything but the issue of elder culpability. We have read again and again how long and cumbersome Amensian's post is to reply to, we have seen some of the most inflammatory, not to mention absurd, terms applied to his perceived treatment at Amensian's hands etc. Everything but the reply he promised.

  He has acted cowardly and wallowed in self pity this entire time. Makes me wonder how so many here think he is so worthy of admiration. You'd think the guy would try to set a better example to all those who hold him in the high esteem he craves and has worked so hard to establish.

  Yes, we have strayed very far from the discussion of elder culpability. If you are looking for the reason for this stray, you need look no further than Amazing himself. And I should think, knowing the history as you do, if we could pin the blame on Teejay, I'd be right there to do it and you know it.

  Amazing has only himself to blame for how things have gone. I don't take great joy in it but am glad to see some true colors shining through, the colors I knew to be in there somewhere long ago.

  Just my views, you can tell me I am a moron and way off base if that's what you think, I can take it.

  High regard,
  Julie, who is now so sick of explaining repeatedly the whole scenario I am out on this
• 

  Kismet

  Hey Julie:

  I have intentionally stayed out of this matter. I personally saw both sides making valid points.

  However on the personalization issue, I just went back and started reading the threads from the beginning.

  In Amnesian's second reply in that first thread, she started using terms like you, all you elders, everyone who served as an elder is guilty, when you went up on the platform puffing your chest...this of course would be viewed as a personal comment against amazing (or really any male who happened to serve in that capacity who might be reading the thread).

  It was not Amazing who started making it a personal issue IMO.

  And honestly I don't see why you are finding it necessary to pull him down and insult him with every one of your posts on this matter. He has already conceded to a degree ..he has been 'humbled' why is it necessary to continue to kick him when he is down and most likely gone? And no I am not an Amazing worshipper or anything.

  Just seems out of charactor to the more charitable-minded, kind-hearted Julie I knew at H20.

  Kismet - my email si the same if you want to discuss it that way... besides I wouldn't mind catching up on what's new in your life etc.