is jesus a god?

by javig 304 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    May you have peace!

    Hi…

    Well, hola!

    Again it is not Michael talking in rev 1:18…and I haven’t said yet who is talking there.

    Ummmm… I am not sure whose response you’re reading, but I have not said that Michael was speaking at Revelation 1:18. The One speaking there would be my Lord, the Son of God and the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH.

    You claim in rev 19:6 is jesus Rev 19:6 it doesn’t tell us that is Jesus speaking. Just because Jesus speak with a voice “is as of many waters” in 1:15 Im bound to think it is Jesus in 19:6? No…read the text:

    Well, it does depend on which VERSION of the Bible one is reading, doesn’t it (and, of course, everybody thinks THEIR version is the “right” version. No WONDER God SAID… my Lord has taught me… to listen to HIM!)? Anyway, let’s look at a couple/few versions:

    And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. (KJV)

    And I heard as a voice of a great crowd, and as a voice of many waters, and as a voice of strong thunders, saying, Hallelujah, for [the] Lord our God the Almighty has taken to himself kingly power. (DBY)

    And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude , and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunders, saying, Hallelujah: for the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigneth. And yours… (ASV)

    Then I heard {something} like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying, "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns. (NASB)

    And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, "Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns. (NKJV)

    And your version…

    Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: "Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns….

    Now, I could post a few more versions but I don’t think that’s necessary. What is EVIDENT here… is that the NKJV and YOUR version… exclude the word “and” (the Greek H2532 “kai”) before the statement about the Voice (or sound) of “many waters.” Now, obviously, someone didn’t agree about whether John heard the voice of the multitude AND a voice of many waters… or the voice of the multitude which was the SAME as that of the many waters. Someone couldn’t agree whether, in THIS case… “kai” means and, or also, or even, or indeed, or but. Hmmmm…

    Tell me, if the so-called Bible “scholars”… these SCRIBES… don’t know between them which is right so that they are all in AGREEMENT (and, yes, I understand that each believe themselves to be right)… how in the world are you or I to know which is correct? I don’t know how YOU know… but I choose to do what my Lord… AND THE BIBLE… say I should do (and, again, I don’t know what Bible version YOU use… but I will quote the NKJV):

    “…the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.” 1 John 2:26

    And that ANOINTING… and the Voice of the Holy Spirit… tells ME… that it was the voice of the multitude… AND the voice of Christ… AND the voice of the angels… ALL praising JAH… that John heard.

    So, now, YOU tell me: am I to listen to YOU… or to God’s Word, Christ… AND the thing YOU call His word, the Bible? Because while the latter two AGREE… you apparently DISAGREE. What is YOUR response?

    clearly the voices being heard is from that great multitude….can’t get more clear than that. It seems you are reading something into the text and context instead of letting the context speak to you…basic biblical hermeneutics plz research it

    Please… re-read above… and tell me, again, who or what SHOULD be TEACHING me… and YOU?

    I know it to be Michael NOT because of what some book says, but because that is who my Lord identified it to be to me….I know not to be Michael in rev 1:18 and 4:1 because some other book told me but because the book of revelation tell me so. The book of revelation will easily correct you on this error.

    Again, you have misunderstood and misquoted me. Please, go back and read what I posted. The One speaking at Revelation 1:18 is NOT the same as the one speaking at Revelation 4:1. In fact, dear PSacramento explained it QUITE well, actually.

    until verse 17b… which I notice you DIDN’T address. At all….obviously the one John sees is Jesus and he talks too john…how do we know that? Verse 12 john turns around to see that voice from verse 11…after turning around he describes the ONE with the voice from verses 12-16…

    You are lost, child. John hears one with the voice of a trumpet… then turns around and SEES one whose voice as “as of many waters.” Simple. Elementary.

    after seen HIM he fell verse 17…The context clearly tell us is one person in verse 1:11 thru-20…context, context, context...what about 4:1? Same thing…is not Michael…the first voice that john heard is the same one from 1:11 and we know to be Jesus because of the description from 1:12-16.

    I vehemently disagree... but then, whom am I? You COULD always ask about the matter for yourself...

    You asked me what is my source? The WORD OF GOD..the bible and my only source…what is your source? And what is your view

    My Source… and the only one I need... is the Word of God, Christ, the Holy Spirit. John 1:14; Revelation 19:13; Matthew 17:5; John 10:3, 4 27; 2 Corinthians 3:17

    Regarding your gods theology AGUEST Let me ask you …when exactly did jesus became a god?

    When he was born… as a spirit being. Spirits are immortals. Mortals die. Immortals do not die. My Lord “emptied himself out and took a slave’s form”… became “mortal”... and so put on flesh… with its blood… so that he COULD die… for us.

    In order to believe jesus is a god, he would have be a creation, so who created him (gods don’t create themselves)?

    No, this isn’t accurate. A god is not limited to something “created.” A god… is one who is immortal, whether he was created… or procreated. The truth of this matter, as my Lord gave it to me, can be found here:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/183615/1/2-Questions-For-AGuest

    As far im concern those who creates gods are pagans, and the only one with creative power is JAH, does that make him a pagan?

    Well, I am glad that is how YOU think of it… but that doesn’t make it TRUE. The length to which YOU… and I… are "concerned"… is totally irrelevant. Totally. What you and I THINK… is neither here… nor there.

    I do agree with you in the sense that all god are false and may I add.. they don’t exist. They only exist in the mind of people but not in the real sense…

    I do not agree with this statement. Satan is indeed a god, in fact, the god “of THIS system.” Even YOUR Bible says that. 2 Corinthians 4:4 And he CERTAINLY exists. Otherwise, who was it that tricked Eve? Who was it that tortured Job? Who was it that attempted to tempt our Lord? You are speaking of FALSE gods… which I agree, do not exist. However, not all gods… are false.

    you said… And some of us will one day be “like” them… which is why WE are called “gods” by the MOST Holy One Himself…I don’t agree….i am immortal not because I am a god or I will become a god someday….

    No, you would be a god… because you would be IMMORTAL. That is what MAKES you a god: the FACT… that you are LIKE God… but NOT God… in that you ar a SPIRIT... and DO NOT DIE.

    i am immortal because I am a spirit being (we humans are composed of body, soul and spirit) and my spirit lives forever…

    Oh, Lordy, child… you are immortal because you are a spirit being, yes… and spirits… ARE IMMORTAL. They DON’T DIE. They must be DESTROYED. By fire. Matthew 10:28 Okay, wait… let me ask you: what does it mean to be IMMORTAL?

    the real question is not if I will live forever or become a god, the real question is where will I spend my eternity? Hell or heaven?...

    I would wage neither. Not Hell (Hades; Sheol)… because death and Hades GIVE UP THOSE IN THEM. Not Heaven… because “New Jerusalem,” the BRIDE of Christ…comes down OUT of Heaven. The CHOICES are… the earth… which was NOT formed for nothing… or Gehenna (the “Lake of Fire”). But it is not for ME to say which, truly. Matthew 10:28

    and all immortals are… gods. And some of us will one day be “like” them….NO I am immortal already

    So, you've begun ruling without the rest of us, have you? No, dear one... you are yet mortal… as your flesh STILL has sin… and death… IN it. It is NOT Incorruptible, but still corruptible as you have not YET “put on Incorruption.” So long as you reside in the flesh… with its blood… you are mortal. It is when you are given a CLEAN “garment”… the WHITE robe… that is the SPIRIT body… that you will have put on INCORRUPTION… and thus, become immortal. 1 Corinthians 15:50-55

    but never a god and never will become one after my death.

    Well, who am I to doubt you on this? You should know. I find it interesting, though, that you consider yourself “immortal,” and yet, still speak of [your] death. Death, dear one… belongs to that which is MORTAL. Hear… and get the SENSE of this truth.

    God created me as a human and I will remain human for the rest of eternity.

    Perhaps. That is not MY hope, however. I am looking forward to being like the angels… immortal… so that I am no longer enslaved to the flesh… with its blood… and its needs and desires. I will TRULY be set free! Romans 8:32, 36 (Oh, and there are no humans in heaven. Only spirit beings. Humans… flesh… with ITS blood… cannot enter. Only the SPIRIT man…)

    In case you become a god look for me I would love to see you as a god.

    I will most certainly remember to do that…

    The MOST High God did not promise anyone to be a god…where is that verse? Is it psalm 82:6 or luke 20;36? I mite misread it. But let me re-read it I said, “You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High” ok

    OKAY…

    lets read 7 now “But you shall die like men, And fall like one of the princes.” uuhhmmm....u see verse seven contradict your view about a god being immortal. Verse 7 proclaims the death of gods. According to you gods are immortal or they have to die to become immortals? Where you get the idea you have to die to become a god? Psalms’ 82? Again read the whole context. The word gods is used in a figurative sense referring to men’s as judges. In this context is referring the judges of Israel and GOD is declaring punishment on them for judging wickedly.

    Ummmm, no, you misunderstand. The MOST Holy One is saying that, although they (Israel) were gods (by means of being the SONS of the Most High… due to His promise to Abraham)… they would die… LIKE men. This was a DEPARTURE from what was usual. Spirit beings don’t DIE. However, God… put the SPIRITS of these INTO THE VESSELS of MEN… HUMANS… so that they would, like their father, Adham, before them… KNOW “bad.” KNOW… death. They WOULD, then, die… AS MEN… but a resurrection does await them. Hear… and get the SENSE of it.

    Now lets read luke 20:36 “nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection”…again read the context (luke 20:27-39) do I have to repeat my self?...you said that I am illiterate you seem to be worst than me…

    I apologize. Perhaps law school “dulled” MY senses…

    Again Jesus is not saying that you will become a god in luke. He is answering the question in verse 33 “whos wife does she become”…and Jesus answered none…why? After death and resurrection there will be no marraiage and procreation. Why he mention angels? To prove his point. If angels can’t procreate in the eternal state or realm or neither do we after resurrection.

    This is true.

    Angels can’t procreate at all…

    I'm sorry, but that's not ENTIRELY true. They cannot procreate WITH THE BODIES THEY HAVE… which is the SAME bodies WE will have… those of us who belong to Christ. THEY… have to PUT ON FLESH… in order to procreate… because SPIRIT BODIES… do not have the MEANS to procreate. They are “sterile.” The ONLY spirit who can… and did… procreate… is the MOST Holy One of Israel, the MOST High God Himself, JAH… of Armies. CHRIST… becomes our “Father”… by means of an ADOPTION… by holy spirit – Genesis 6:2; Matthew 1:20; Romans 8:15

    and we will never become a god at all. You know your beliefs system are exactly the same as the mormons…they too believe they will become gods one day…are you a Mormon or a moron?

    I am neither. But you should take care… as the deterioration of your, well, “self-control”… indicates that perhaps you cannot handle a discussion such as this… and remain in Christ’s love. Which shouldn’t be the case… should it... as both love AND self-control are gifts of God's holy spirit?

    I need to leave off here… for I have a couple/few errands to run. I will return this evening and address the remainder of what I am directed to respond to. In the meantime, again,

    I bid you the greatest of peace.

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • javig
    javig

    To snowbird

    That's the main reason that I don't believe the Trinity doctrine.

    Many people killed, emperors called upon to settle the dispute, some, depending on their adherence to this doctrine, being crowned or deposed, bodies dug up and the remains scattered - all in the name of Christ!

    What foolishness!

    Sylvia

    …your bag of excuses will never fly away and disregard the trinity…if that all you have to deny the trinity I will have said the jw have better excuses (even thou they don’t)….

    is it fear for me to believe you are a thief just because one of your family members are?...besides any real Christ believer will never kill for no reason at all and if they do they are fanatics…I can kill in the name of Christ in your name in any name but that doesn’t make me a Christ believer...and you said it very well they kill in the name of Christ but it wasn’t for Christ…two different issues here…read what its been post so far or do some personal research. then come to your own conclusion about the trinity then share it with us…thanks

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    javig,

    Pm means I sent you a personal message, basically I wanted to get that article you posted, where can I find it?

  • lampstand
    lampstand

    Proverbs 3:5-6

  • javig
    javig

    To ps sacramento

    im new to this forum i didn't know that i have an inbox..and the first time to a forum and is quite interesting...here is the link for all the articles i will be posting

    http://www.equip.org/categories/jesus-christ

  • javig
    javig

    Did Jesus Claim to Be God? Part 2: The Question Clarified

    CP1203

    DID JESUS CLAIM TO BE GOD- Introduction
    In our last CRI Perspective, we talked about the importance of determining whether or not Jesus Christ in fact claimed to be God. Someone may ask, can’t someone just cite a passage in the Bible where Jesus declared “I am God,” thereby resolving this whole issue one way or the other for all time?

    DID JESUS CLAIM TO BE GOD- Customized Passage When people challenge Christians to prove that Jesus said He was God, they typically expect to be shown a “customized” passage from the Bible, quickly rejecting any passage cited that isn’t phrased exactly the way they want it to be. Approaching the question with this kind of an attitude can only lead to erroneous conclusions.

    DID JESUS CLAIM TO BE GOD- Did He? What needs to be determined is whether Jesus did, in fact, claim to be God in terms understandable to that particular era and to that particular geographical region, and not necessarily to ours.

    DID JESUS CLAIM TO BE GOD- Misunderstanding the Message Besides, to expect Jesus to boldly and brazenly proclaim that He was God is to misunderstand altogether His very character and His mission as the Messiah. After all, would a man of perfect humility and servitude, a man who came to glorify His Father in heaven, be true to this task if He focused attention on Himself rather than pointing to the Father? Of course not!

    DID JESUS CLAIM TO BE GOD- God the Father? Such an unqualified declaration might also have led the Jewish people to conclude falsely that Jesus was claiming to be God the Father. Jesus avoided this type of confusion by revealing His identity in a very precise, concise, and careful manner.

    DID JESUS CLAIM TO BE GOD- Actions to Back Up the Words It has often been said that actions speak much louder than words. And in the following three Perspectives, we’re going to see just how Jesus Christ of Nazareth attested to His own deity. Let us, however, remember Christ’s own words when He said, “I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it” (John 8:28).

    DID JESUS CLAIM TO BE GOD- Conclusion This is Hank Hanegraaff inviting you to stay tuned for Part 3 of the CRI Perspective series on the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    May you have peace! Again, my apologies for the delay. I would like to respond first to your penultimate post, if you don’t mind… before going back to the last one I have been directed to respond to from yesterday. You will see in my comments why that is:

    I will wait its been great debating, studying and sharing. If I don’t get to you quick as possible (sic) I ask you the same thing be patient. I do too im exhausted of studying this issue and for my certification as a mechanic for my company…

    First, the best of success on your exam. Also, thank you for accommodating me, and I will endeavor to the same; however, again, I do not intend to read the “commentaries” you have posted. I see no point… and no benefit. They are neither your thoughts… nor that of the Holy Spirit. Since the originator of such teachings is not here (and so, I cannot pose any questions to THEM… I have to respectfully decline as I believe that you’re really not doing anything different than those who cut and paste from the pages of the WT… which are, of course, the thoughts and false teachings of others… adopted by those who cut and paste them). I will address your comments with regard to such commentaries, however:

    some articles are from a scholars on others are not…a good scholar or student always analysis both side of the coin…it is not an excuse

    Dear one, there are SO many “coins” out there… I simply do not have the LIFESPAN to analyze all of them related to this subject. I can tell you what I know… HOW I know… WHO I received it from… and show you in the Bible where it is written. As one who professes to belong to God, through Christ… and be a member of the BODY of Christ (which can only be accomplished by an anointing with holy spirit)… you SHOULD be able to do the same thing… and not have to refer to what others of EARTHLING men are telling you.

    Tell me: how can you lay blame on the members of the WTBTS for following nothing more than what THEIR “leaders”… who are MEN of FLESH… earthly… and imperfect… is YOU are doing the EXACT SAME THING? Is that not HYPOCRISY? Judging others when you do the SAME thing? It is.

    take your time..that is not an excuse

    I did not say that I wouldn’t read it because I didn’t have the time. I said I would not because it is too long. I am not going to TAKE the time. No excuse. Just the truth

    copy and paste to word doc and change the font size…still not an excuse

    No. I am not going to take out of my time to do that. There is NO benefit to me to do so. I might as well go out and get a WT and read that (and I am certainly NOT going to do that!). Or post an entire one to YOU... and ask YOU to respond. Which would be of benefit how? No, I am not going to do it. No excuse. Just the truth.

    a good bible student test everything with scriptures since they are too the words of the HS…and still is not an excuse

    I am not a good “Bible” student. I do not study the Bible. Why should I? What is the benefit of that… what I can simply go to the One about WHOM the scriptures themselves bear witness. READ… John 5:39, 40… and perhaps you will “see” what I mean. In the meantime, back to our previous “discussion”…

    So far what you have proclaim about yourself is 1) Jesus is a god, 2) I one day will become a god 3) are gods or Gods are false (you will be false one day)…men/woman you are a joke..

    Although none of this is about ME.. I vehemently agree with Item #1. I cannot say at all with regard to Item #2… and never said such a thing (it is based on your assumption that you are “going to heaven.” If that is the case… then, yes, you would be a god. However, you wouldn’t actually STAY in heaven… as God’s chosen ones… the Bride of Christ, those joined to him so that they are ONE spirit… and thus, his BODY… NEW Jerusalem… comes down (well, “out”) of heaven. But then you know that, do you not, because YOU are a “good Bible student”… right?

    As for Item #3, I am sorry, but it doesn’t quite make sense, at least the way it’s stated. Can you please clarify?

    If you want to prove that you one day will become a god they why JAH created you as a human being in the first place? He could have created you a god in the beginning of your existence.

    The word of the Holy Spirit… is that you were attempting to be flip… and so do not realize what you have asked, but since you HAVE asked… you must now consider whether you really want to know… or not. Thus, he has directed that I can answer this question; however, I can ONLY answer if (1) you are absolutely serious and truly WISHING to know… and (2) the answer can be set off in a response by itself (it can be in this thread, but not this particular response post). I cannot combine it here, because it is (1) too important, and (2) very wondrous. So… you need to let the MOST Holy One of Israel (aka “God”) know… through Christ… what it is you are “wishing” with regard to this particular matter. If you are sincere, I will be directed to respond. Indeed, I will HAVE to. IF, however, you are NOT sincere… but only wish to engage in “empty” debate and so are unable to put faith in what I am able to share with you as to this matter… you will receive nothing. James 1:5-8 However, to help you so that you might know how to approach (besides going through Christ)… i.e., WHAT to ask for… I am to direct you to Luke 11:13. The word of the Holy Spirit is… the choice in this matter is totally yours.

    Want to prove your god transformation where are those verses besides psalm and luke?

    Well, there is John 10:34… and 1 Corinthians 8:5… and Galatians 4:8… which speaks of the people of the nations slaving for those who “by NATURE” are not gods. The RSV kind of states it best:

    “Formerly, when you did not know God, you were in bondage to beings that by nature are no gods;”

    What does that mean? It means they… those of the nations… had formerly slaved for/served/were in bondage to FALSE gods… beings, person, entities, who by NATURE… NOT gods. The point? That there are those who, by NATURE… ARE gods. True, the aren’t the MOST High God… but I don’t think you’re ready yet to quite get that difference. At least, your comments indicate you aren’t.

    But, the word of the Spirit is that Psalm 82:6 should have been enough… because it is the ONLY one that is “scripture” (Luke is not “scripture”)… such that even HE quoted it.

    What exactly you have to do to become a god? Born or die or something else?

    Put off… flesh… with its blood… the “soiled garment”… which is the PHYSICALl body that is “corruptible” and thus has sin and death IN it… and put ON flesh… with GOD’S blood (holy spirit)… the “white robe”… which is the SPIRIT body that is INCORRUPTIBLE… and so sin and death cannot reside IN it. Thus, what is MORTAL… becomes IMMORTAL. Yes, you must be born… AGAIN… in SPIRIT… and no, you do not need to die, at all. Those who DO die… will be resurrected to such a body… and those who do NOT die… will be CHANGED to such a body:

    1. “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die.” John 11:25, 26

    2. “But some one will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of bodydo they come?" 1 Corinthians 15:35

    3. “So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.”

    “Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Corinthians 15:42-54

    4. “But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

    After you become a god what will be your purpose as a god?

    “Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.” Revelation 20:4-6

    If you will become a god why you need forgiveness of your sins?

    “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

    “But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you. So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.

    “For all who are led by the Spirit of Godare sons of God.” Romans 8:1-14

    Cause the devil is a god (the bible uses that word figuratively towards him)

    Actually, it uses it literally. He is immortal... and thus a god. That is why he still exists. He has not yet been destroyed… in Gehenna… where both the body AND the spirit (life force) are destroyed.

    “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Greek – “geenna”).” Matthew 10:28

    The body dies. The SPIRIT, however… must be destroyed. And only FIRE can destroy it. That is why fire destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. And that why the angels that sinned... still exist: although they are currently confined, they are WAITING judgment… and possible destruction.

    “For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell (Greek – “tartaroo”) and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment…” 2 Peter 2:4

    Because it will only happen once more. Once more, fire will come down from heaven and when it does, it destroys ALL bad spirits… whether they dwell in humans bodies (“Gog”)… or in spirit bodies (“Magog”). With the exception of Satan: he is thrown into the LAKE of fire… Gehenna… where he is tortured… forever.

    “ And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be loosed from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, that is, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” Revelation 20:7-10

    and he will never be forgiven of his sin.

    I totally agree. But although he is a god (i.e., an immortal)… is does not belong to Christ. SO… there is no “covering” for his sin. He can neither wash HIS robes (spirit body) in the blood of the Lamb… NOR eat from the Tree of Life that IS that Lamb. John 15:1, 2

    Are you special

    Oh, my goodness… no. Not at all. Not by ANY stretch. What has occurred and is occurring with me can occur with ANY of earthling man. All that is needed, apparently, is faith... the size of a mustard seed.

    are you gonna boast after your transformation and proclaim “when I was human jesus forgave my sins”?

    Why would I wait until then to do such a thing? I can… and do boast of that NOW. I mean… that IS the GOOD news, after all, isn’t it… that sinner though I am… I am CLEAN by means of the BLOOD of Christ… which blood WASHES away my sins… and BLOTS THEM OUT… of the scroll? What is the “good news” that YOU declare????

    The devil is not a god, he is a fallen angel,

    Actually, he is both (well, actually, he was a little bit more than just an angel - he was one of the "cherubs" that was "covering" the propitiatory of the Ark [of the Covenant] - Ezekiel 28:17 - but that's another thread). But: angels are immortal... and thus gods. He is an angel, and thus a god. He "fell"... and thus he is a fallen angel. But... there are many of those (fallen angels).

    he is eternal just like every human being, he is a spirit being and all spirit being are eternals.

    Spirits are immortal, yes, but not eternal. If they were eternal… they couldn’t be destroyed. Humans are also not eternal… for the same reason:

    “ And they marched up over the broad earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; but fire came down from heaven and consumed them..” Revelation 20:9

    “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” Revelation 20:12-15

    “Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.” Revelation 20:6

    The fact that angels are spirits and immortals doesn’t make them gods.

    Dear one, a “god”… IS AN IMMORTAL… whether in reality (i.e., spirit beings) or just in man’s mind (i.e., false gods = false immortals).

    Jesus is more than eternal, he is not subject to eternity, he is outside of eternity, he created eternity.

    You are in error. Eternity has no beginning and no end. Thus, the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies… who created everything AND brought forth His Son… is the “Alpha” and the “Omega.” His SON… JAHESHUA… had a beginning. He was brought forth. Thus, he is the firstBORN. He was PRODUCED… not created. Proverbs 8:22-31 (please... look up the HEBREW for verses 24, and 25. “Study,” please, the Pulal and Hophel renderings of the Hebrew word “chuwl”.)

    Jesus is immortal not because he is a god, he is immortal because GOD can’t die.

    My Lord… is a god… because he is immortal… and thus cannot die. His Father, the MOST Holy One of Israel, is also a god… in that He, too, is immortal. However, HE… is the Most HIGH God. The Greek word “theos” is used for ALL of these… whether they be “gods”… or the Most HIGH God. C’mon… you’re the “student” of the Bible, here – you should know this…

    The only thing that dies is our body just like Jesus body. Our body is subject to death but not our soul and spirit. And we are body, soul, spirit creatures (1 Tess. 5:23).

    We are body (physical), soul (living, vs. dead), and spirit. A physical body can be a LIVING body… or a DEAD body. If it is LIVING… it is a “soul.”

    “ then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.” Genesis 2:7

    The word rendered here as “being” is the Hebrew word “nephesh”which means:

    “1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion

    a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man

    b) living being

    c) living being (with life in the blood)”

    And there is a day that my body will be immortal just like Jesus body after His resurrection

    "Will be." I VEHEMENTLY agree:

    “ As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.” 1 Corinthians 15:48, 49

    So far it seems that you love to take verses out of context and come with a pretext. Please don’t see passages of scriptures exclusively by themselves. See them in light of its context, in light of other passages and in the whole context of the bible…

    I must ask that you do the same…

    Let me ask you another question..are we saved by faith alone in Christ alone?

    Yes; however, faith… that is EXERCISED, DEMONSTRATED… and not “dead.” We can SAY we believe… all day long. The demons believe. That we LIVE our faith is what matters. I have faith in the Holy One of Israel, that he IS the glorified Holy Spirit… and so the One sent to teach me. I have faith that he IS the Son of God… that it is HIS voice that I hear… follow… and obey. I EXERCISE that faith by (1) believing what he tells me, (2) obeying what he tells me, and (3) declaring what he tells me. If I were to keep silent… if I were to say, “No, he doesn’t speak,” and/or “No, he doesn’t speak to ME,” then that would be a demonstration of my LACK of faith.

    Noah heard. Abraham heard. Jacob heard. David heard. John the Baptist heard. The Apostle John heard. Paul heard. And many, many others. MANY received the promised holy spirit and by means of THAT… had their ears OPENED… so that they could HEAR the voice of the One… who speaks from the heavens.

    “ Sacrifice and offering thou dost not desire; but thou hast given me an open ear. Burnt offering and sin offering thou hast not required.” Psalm 40:6

    “See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less shall we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.” Hebrews 12:25

    I OPENLY profess to YOU… and before EVERY man… that I, too, have received such “oil of exultation” and by means of IT… I, TOO… hear the voice of the Lamb. That YOU do not hear him… is of no concern to me. That is between YOU… and HIM. But I will NOT deny the Spirit… before you… or for you… or for YOUR lack of faith.

    And last but not least.... if I ever misunderstood you about your gods theology please I am all ears…however I would like you to ask all my questions in here

    We can certainly do this here… as the Holy Spirit permits. I must obey him, however, and so, as long as HE permits me to share with you… I will most certainly do so, because I am HIS servant… and unless he says different… yours.

    I WILL NEVER BECOME A god ....

    You yourself have said it…

    You asked me what is my source? The WORD OF GOD..the bible and my only source…what is your source?

    MY Source… is the WORD of God... Holy One of Israel, my Lord and Master and THE Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... the Son and Christ of the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of ARMIES… from out of whose innermost parts streams of LIVING WATER… the holy spirit of God, His blood and life force… flow. I have learned that rather than drinking “downstream”… I now drink… DIRECTLY from the Source… the One who says to ALL “Come to ME, all you who are thirsting… and DRINK!” John 1:1, 14; Revelation 19:13; 7:37, 38

    MY Source is the One who said:

    “ If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, 'Give me a drink,' you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.”

    and…

    “whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst; the water that I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life." John 4:10, 14

    I asked… and I received. And, yes, it was just that simple:

    “If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" Luke 11:13; Isaiah 44:3; Joel 2:28, 29

    And what is your view about the incarnation of jesus?...thanks

    Please look here (and you are quite welcome!):

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/183615/1/2-Questions-For-AGuest

    Again, I apologize for taking so long to respond… but there was quite a bit. I, SA, have shared these things with you, just as I received them from the Holy Spirit, the Holy One of Israel, my Lord and Master, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... the Son and Christ of the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of ARMIES.

    I bid you peace... and good night!

    Your servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    do some personal research. then come to your own conclusion about the trinity then share it with us…
    thanks

    I've been researching this since the age of 12.

    My conclusion? The Trinity Doctrine is full of holes.

    As an example, if this doctrine is so important, we would reasonably expect to have it spelled out for us in Revelation, don't you think? However, four times in Revelation (1:4; 3:1; 4:5; 5:6) the Seven Spirits of God are mentioned.

    Now, riddle me this, which one of those Seven Spirits is the Holy Spirit?

    Thanks.

    Sylvia

  • sacolton
    sacolton

    Well, it's spirits ... not gods, so it's safe to say it doesn't disprove the trinity doctrine. Had it said, "the seven gods" then I can see a problem with that.

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hi Sylvia,

    That's the main reason that I don't believe the Trinity doctrine.

    Many people killed, emperors called upon to settle the dispute, some, depending on their adherence to this doctrine, being crowned or deposed, bodies dug up and the remains scattered - all in the name of Christ!

    What foolishness!

    With greatest respect, killing "in the name of Christ" has nothing to do with following Jesus' teachings Matthew 5:21-23 Matthew 5:39

    Advancing the kingdom of heaven is not anything to do with warring against "flesh and blood" Ephesians 6:12

    Neither are Trinitarians inherently murderers, if so they are not part of the kingdom of God at all 1 John 3:15

    Those killing "in the name of Christ" have about as much to do with the kingdom of God as those that kill in the name of "jehovah" over the 'no blood' doctrine.

    Can I ask you what your understanding of these verses is? As you probably know, I have quoted them in regard to the Trinity doctrine quite a bit.

    Romans 8:9-10 (New International Version)

    9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

    Love in Christ,

    Stephen xx

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