Russian JWs in Serious Trouble - about to be banned

by Dogpatch 106 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Robdar

  This is materialistic Russia we are talking about, the underground JW stuff doesn't have the sex appeal it used to have. Russia still has openess and freedom, not like Stalin stuff. Those are in the bygone days.

  Russia will continue with her relative openess and freedom until the Russian Orthodox, who are squarely behind this, take over. This is nothing more than a power play--the Russian Orthodox are flexing their muscle.

  BTW, JW's are not having an easy time of it in Russia right now. They are being beaten and even having their houses burned down. This has been going on for several years.

  I used to attend a Russian Orthodox Church with my ex husband. The American Russian Orthodox are aware of and very concerned about the welfare of the JWs and have appealed to the Patriarch to do something about it.

  I find it amazing that the American Russian Orthodox Church has more concern about what is happening to the witnesses in Russia than do some of the people on this board who used to be a JW and probably have family members that still are.
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  Freedom of speech and religion can't be separated here. You can't muzzle them and claim you respect their right to be a religion. Not in this country, not with our Bill of Rights. Those who ban or advocate that are no better in the long run.

  I think I have become extremely liberal since leaving the WTS, but would like to see less government so I lean Libertarian. But it's on a case-by-case basis that I form my views.

  YES, YOU CAN BE FOR FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND RELIGION, YET BE AGAINST THE WTS AND SUPPORT THE BAN. I could support muzzling them because I don't respect "their" right to be a religion. That wasn't decided on by some staunch Roman Catholic that doesn't like their door-knocking. They have some valid points. I don't really agree with point number 3 (refusing civil responsibilities and discouraging reverence to the flags and performing anthems) but I am right with the government on Number 1 and 2.

  Despite the fact that I would love to see smaller government, it is there as a safety. Just as they don't allow child sacrifices, they should not allow hate-religions like WTS really is. WT decides who "true Christians" are and insults those that don't follow their rules.

  I don't know that the ban will cause them to grow, I doubt it. But it is the right thing to do in this case. It sounds like Russia took their responsibility very seriously on this matter, didn't just arrest them all like the old days. I always said that stuff like this needed to start outside of the U.S., probably in Europe. I applaud governments that examine the thing so carefully.
• 

  jonathan dough

  Freedom of worship ends where child sacrifice begins. Even in the "freedom of religion" US, parents can't slaughter their children in sacrifice to "god". Yet, that is what Watchtower Corp. does when insisting refusal of blood, clearly in the case of children, but similarly with the threat of disfellowshipping for adults. It becomes human sacrifice.

  Maybe, but banning a religion outright not only violates the US Constitution (I know we're talking about Russia) and the Bill or Rights, but it's akin to burning down the forest to keep warm. It's a slippery, and illegal, position that can come back to haunt and would never pass constitutional muster regardless of what anyone thinks or wants. As such it is pointless to advocate it here. Besides, there might be other means of dealing with the problem while at the same time preserving our cherished First Amendment rights.

  For instance, there are laws on the books right now that could MAYBE curtail their activities. Tort actions (wrongful death and intentional infliction of emotional distress), Defamation (slander and libel), a civil claim for damages resulting from extortion, false imprisonment, perhaps, federal and state stalking laws, .... I'm sure there are more, invasion of privacy. Look into their finances - maybe you'll find something. It probably hasn't been tried yet on a large scale, but it will in the future. Class actions are a powerful tool.

  With respect to sacrificing children on behalf of the blood prohibition, I don't know what the law is. But banning the religion outright is unamerican and highly unlikely. And when the day comes (which might be closer than we think) that the government can dictate what they say and write, then we all need to run for cover. It is happening in Canada already, labeling anti-gay sermons as hate speech. Let's hope we never sink to their level although the WW I era might resurrect its ugly head. And, as far as "sacrificing those children to a god" I believe the courts uphold that right or am I wrong on this? I don't know what the law is and it might be a state by state issue, but how else can parents get away with witholding blood transfusions unless it is legal here in the US?

  By the way, does anyone know if they "sell" their literature in other countries or if they only take "contributions" like in the US?

  http://144000.110mb.com/144000/i-5.html#VI
• 

  blondie

  Since 2000 all countries where WTS operate. operate under the same donation to the "worldwide work" operation.

  *** yb01 p. 18 Highlights of the Past Year ***Another factor in reaching more people with the good news has been the simplified literature distribution arrangement. Jehovah has blessed the faith shown by his servants in this matter. The voluntary donation arrangement is explained to people, but no charge is made for the literature. As of January 2000, that arrangement was extended to all lands where it was not already in operation.
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  jonathan dough

  Since 2000 all countries where WTS operate. operate under the same donation to the "worldwide work" operation.

  Thanks. Although we know that calling it a donation is a legal fiction.
• 

  Satanus

  Don't worry, jay hoover will be a mighty sheild to pertect them. Doesn't gog of magog get exterminated, when he touches god's eyeball, the dubs?

  S
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  banning a religion outright

  I hear you. We need to support the rights of people we disagree with. So as far as the U.S. or others with similar rights in place, they won't say Jehovah's Witnesses are outright banned. They will say none of the Hate-All-Other-Religions printed materials will be allowed. It ain't picking on JW's. It would equally apply to Mormons, Baptists, Muslims, etc. Maybe the verbal hate from the podium would still be allowed, but with warnings that the audience would be ready for it before the talks. It appears that Russia told them what they needed to stop doing, yet they keep doing it. They seem to have been very patient with the WTS.

  So, for the sake of "their rights," WTS could continue to promote the destruction of families and the sacrifice of children to the members, but they couldn't carry it to the public. They could continue to implant fears in the minds of their captives and teach them to hate former members, other religions, education, birthdays and holidays.

  On second thought, ban the whole thing. It's hate and fear and dangerous. There are no easy answers.
• 

  rebel8

  This has been brewing for years.

  A multi-national billion dollar corporation chose not to move its lemmings to safety. Instead they use this as an opportunity to illustrate their "persecution" and elevate their status as God's One and Only Persecuted True People TM .

  I think we should keep repeating the question--why didn't the wealthy wts help members escape and then work on the legal issues to re-establish rights afterwards? Didn't they learn their lesson after Nazi Germany?
• 

  dissed

  Robdar

  My sis-in-law married into a Russian family. Her father and sis-in-law both were on the Russian Olympic team, but defected. Her father, under Stalin, and sis under Kruschef. They have shared many stories of the old country and feel strongly it will never go back to the old ways again, but......

  If i understand them correctly. in the USA, someone can scream on the streets how evil the USA govt is and no one would care. But in Russia, you just don't say the Govt is owned by the Devil and certainly not the Orthodox Church. You will make enemies if you do.
• 

  jonathan dough

  It appears that Russia told them what they needed to stop doing, yet they keep doing it. They seem to have been very patient with the WTS.

  So, for the sake of "their rights," WTS could continue to promote the destruction of families and the sacrifice of children to the members, but they couldn't carry it to the public. They could continue to implant fears in the minds of their captives and teach them to hate former members, other religions, education, birthdays and holidays.

  On second thought, ban the whole thing. It's hate and fear and dangerous

  But this is EXACTLY what the Nazis preached. Listen to yourself. They have the right, as distasteful as it is. You're no better than they are if you ban them. At least they don't go that far. Nowhere do they advocate shutting you up or using the government to curtail other religion's rights by law. They have the right to preach that they are the only Christians and all others are Satanists just like you have the right to claim they are sacrificying children and that they are the true Satanists.

  It's hypocritical to deny them their rights. Speaking of which, it must be conceded that they've done far more to protect your freedom of speech and religion than many others, even if it was self motivated. They have gone to great lengths to secure for you the right to advocate for their complete banning. The problem with a lot of the people on this board, who have been hurt and burned and have every reason to be bitter and angry with them, is that they paint with a broad stroke, too broad, and force generalities when in fact the JWs are not bad in everything they do. Fact. There are some good JWs. Fact. They just happen to be wrong about most of their theology and how they apply it to the real world. Don't be a facist or communist. You're better than that.

  Now, just to qualify what I said, I also think they are a Jones Town cult even though they don't know it. When THAT line has been crossed, I would hope the government does the right thing and steps in before it is too late. It's not there yet.

  http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-7.html#36