Russian JWs in Serious Trouble - about to be banned

by Dogpatch 106 Replies latest jw friends

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    I cannot believe some of the statements made in this thread. Some of them border on idiocy.

    On a less extreme note, my long time collaborator Randy Watters (who is not an idiot and he's as much a friend to me as anyone can be given that he is nearly [but not quite] as big of a pain-in-the-ass as I am) said:

    :It may be the largest single opportunity for growth for the JWs in decades - you watch!

    :If you were a dissident, what other religion would be more to your liking?

    I humbly beg to differ, Randy.

    People will not migrate to a religion (in this case, the WTS) that is currently being vilified by a government, UNLESS that religion offers something people want. The Russians today are too urban, too educated and too smart to migrate to Watchtower shit(tm) because a) they are internet savvy and b) the WT doesn't offer them anything that appeals to anyone but uneducated imbeciles.

    Ok: Maybe Siberia is open game for the WTS. Great! There are 34 people in Siberia. Tops! (Most of them are frozen to death as we speak.)

    If you know anything about Russians, then you know they are skeptics, morose, gloomy and moody. They've had centuries of conditioning to be that way. They are not easily convinced about anything.

    Besides that, it is hard to make any decisions when the room temperature in your apartment is -20 Centigrade.

    The Russians are terrible candidates for Watchtower lies, IMNSHO, Randy.

    Farkel

  • metatron
    metatron

    Amen, Farkel!

    Witness Myth # 1 Persecution makes the organization stronger: No, it doesn't and I dare any of you to prove otherwise. It can make individuals stronger, in the same way that lifting weights makes your muscles stronger but the broad evidence is that it takes away Watchtower property, inhibits cash flow and may end publisher growth, where it occurs. If a repressive regime that persecuted Witnesses is overthrown, the Organization may gain some credit for being in opposition but that's extremely unlikely to happen in Russia's future.

    I suppose you could make an argument that it may encourage Witlesses elsewhere to revel in the thought that 'we're being persecuted; hooray!' but that's about it.

    This possible ban could be very useful in fighting the evils of the Watchtower. How so?

    Well, consider the difference with past Soviet bans vs modern Russia: It used to be "you work for the CIA to oppose the state" (which was ridiculous). Now, it's "you kill children and adults with the blood issue, you are are antisocial, you condemn everyone else, you break up families, and you expel people who serve their country".

    See the difference? Now, tell me how the lying Watchtower lawyers are going to go whining to the Europeans and face officials from France and Belgium who already know that these accusations are basically true? Good Luck with that!

    Keep in mind that this ban could evaporate if Witnesses weren't so obnoxious! Yes, I know about freedom of speech .... and this is Russia, remember? The American Empire that tried to spread these ideas is in decline and losing influence. As a practical matter, I would not push the envelope if I was the Watchtower. It's time for quiet compromise ....... and don't be surprized if things drift in that direction.

    metatron

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    Well, now they will need to stay loyal to the Filthful and Disgraceful Slavebugger instead of common sense. And I agree with banning, but that should be done by educating the public about the scams and the tricks the witlesses use to scam people into the cancer. If that is done, no one will go in, and those in will soon run out of money and get discouraged. In time, attendance will stagnate, and what was once a vibrant congregation of witlesses will become a stagnant remnant of itself.

    What I am more worried about is that Russia, once a totalitarian country, is slipping back in that direction. I would really like to have seen Russia become a totally free country--even to the extent where only initiatory force, threats of force, and fraud would be banned (and the witlesses do initiate death threats in God's name, and fraud against the public). But, it looks like they are headed back toward totalitarianism. Oh well, it was nice while it lasted (and something tells me that the same will be said about the United Tyranny of America in a few years).

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut
    Nowhere do they advocate shutting you up or using the government to curtail other religion's rights by law.

    Jonathan Dough, as I said- There are no easy answers.
    They do advocate shutting me up TO MY FAMILY if I say anything against them. Yet they are free to demonize me.
    They do advocate governmental curtailing of other religions' rights. It's just that they are advocating the removal of current governments and obeying the government that they subscribe to- the supposed theocracy. I think the problem here is our view of the situation. People are free to believe that the government should be changed or abandoned. People should be free to talk of a revolution. But the WTS is not about restoring people's rights, they are about enslaving people. Even there, it's tough to say they should lose their "rights." But now remember that WTS is a religion with tax exemptions. Sometimes, it's easier to see the problem if you take a similar example: It's one thing to say that a group in the United States has the right to advocate Communism and overthrow of the government, but it would be another thing to say that they have the right to sell pamphlets and books door-to-door that spout hatred and make millions of dollars on the backs of their "volunteers" and do it all tax-free. I know we have to argue whether the pamphlets spout hatred. Debate on that is good.

    But this is EXACTLY what the Nazis preached. Listen to yourself. They have the right, as distasteful as it is. You're no better than they are if you ban them.

    You compare me to the Nazis because I see that government is responsible for safety and should have the power to do something. You don't want to debate, you just subscribe to an anarchy that everyone is free to do what they think is best. I support peoples' rights to believe in things I don't believe in. I don't ask that WTS advocates be imprisoned or shot. Another example: those fringe Mormon groups that advocate polygamy and child-marriage. Government steps in because they are a danger to children. Well, some of us say that dangerous cults are a danger to children even if they don't rape them.

    Sure, we will argue about "just how far" government should go in the name of public safety. There is a danger that they will go too far on a witch hunt. First they go after the JW's then they go after all religious groups that disagree with the majority. That danger exists. It's important to monitor the situation.

    If you support their "right" to say what they say, you should equally support my right to call for a ban, but just argue against the ban itself without resorting to attacking me.

    It's hypocritical to deny them their rights.

    Clearly, from the content of the rest of that paragraph, we will remain at a point of disagreement. I can respect that without calling you "no better than [the Nazis]" or a facist or a communist. I don't advocate banning your name-slinging because you are not teaching hate and implanting fear to make your point (although that could be argued). The JW's as individuals are not bad at everything they do. Nobody is suggesting banning the individuals their rights. The ban is against the evil organization. WTS is too much bad. Government would not let a corporation sell literal poison to the public, so we are free to debate and take sides on whether government should let people sell clear mind poison to people. Sure, we will always have disagreements about what is clear mind poison. That doesn't make us Nazis, facists, or communists to disagree and argue on that.

    You end with a what I can view as reasonable compromise. I respect that you feel there is a line to cross and that they haven't crossed it yet. Can you respect that others disagree about where the line should be? Last example: Some people feel that the U.S. is going way too far in establishing a Food and Drug Administration to slow down the introduction of new drugs and make safe food distribution more costly. There will always be arguments about just how far they should go. Arguments of this sort are fine, but those that believe the FDA should stay in operation are not Nazis.

  • yknot
    yknot

    I mourn for the violence that is coming should a ban take effect.

    Majority will 'standfirm', those who are higher up will discern 'strategy' but blood will be shed, lives and families ruined.

    In the end I will hold the Russian Orthodox church the most responsible. Their part in this is not about protecting Russians from the WTS as much as protecting their status.

    Education is the answer but such an education would have just as chilling effects on the RO as it would on current and would be JWs.

  • Dogpatch
    Dogpatch

    dissed says,

    the underground JW stuff doesn't have the sex appeal

    There are other, more pragmatic reasons why people join the JWs other than just being a dissident. Many are not that reactionary, but just want a different community than they have naturally, for personal, primal needs being met. "This family is better than the one I have!"

    Randy

  • Dogpatch
    Dogpatch

    Evil Farkel says,

    People will not migrate to a religion (in this case, the WTS) that is currently being vilified by a government, UNLESS that religion offers something people want.

    That doesn't contradict what I said, I was being simplistic to make a point that matches my psyche. :-)) I am an anarchist, Chile!

    You are right, and most who join or not dissenters, but the few that are become the energy and life of the church... the leaders and bosses. Usually alpha males (or females). So when that happens, like trying to kill terrorists or something, you get a strong and surprising reaction... you have just activated a dynamic powerhouse. They get the sheep-to-be excited, and the sheer energy of the whole movement takes off. Not always, especially in the case of bad leadership, but it is not uncommon. The rest of the sheep that have primal needs met by the WT will follow them to safety, and presto you have a new cult. :-))

    Randy

    http://www.freeminds.org/blogs/from-the-desk-of-randy/why-some-people-are-better-off-in-cults.html

  • Finally-Free
    Finally-Free
    I suppose you could make an argument that it may encourage Witlesses elsewhere to revel in the thought that 'we're being persecuted; hooray!' but that's about it.

    That's what I meant when I said it would feed their persecution complex. I think it would increase the solidarity of the 'worldwide brotherhood' that is not persecuted while they hang their Russian brothers out to dry. A few will donate a sheet of paper, an envelope, and a stamp along with a few minutes of their time and send a letter of protest. Then they'll hold their heads high, firm in their delusion that they are exemplary.

    W

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    'In the end I will hold the Russian Orthodox church the most responsible.'

    I hold the wt corp most responsible, because of their stupid rules and standards. People should be free to do their duties in the countries that they reside. People should have respect for their families. People should have the right to try to save their lives w blood transfusions. Who is the wt corp to insist otherwise? They are a new american religion. Their methods don't go over so well in some other cultures. Who are they to insist that they have a right to go into other countries and automatically get respect for their idiocincratic doctrines?

    S

  • Dogpatch
    Dogpatch

    Metatron says,

    Witness Myth # 1 Persecution makes the organization stronger: No, it doesn't and I dare any of you to prove otherwise. It can make individuals stronger, in the same way that lifting weights makes your muscles stronger but the broad evidence is that it takes away Watchtower property, inhibits cash flow and may end publisher growth, where it occurs.

    That's where something could occur to form a breakaway movement from the Watchtower (especially in Russia) that goes "back to its roots," in which case it DOES make them stronger as INDIVIDUALS but not in terms of property or organization. Many cults go the way of splitting due to new energy that denounces the old as corrupt, and the new leaders as the ones who represent the real "truth." Like a split between the fat cat/do nothings and the "anointed of God."Then growth and power gradually moves in the more charismatic direction. Current Watchtower org. loses, the "new Jehovah's Witnesses" win and begin to rapidly multiply within 10 years.

    In any case, the Watchtower does not LIKE being persecuted, but it does produce some benefits to them, which unfortunately may accrue to a new breakaway group, so they are uneasy regardless.

    In the early years of the WT as in other movements, they were the true believers and didn't care much about "organization" or property... it's a whole different mentality now, like the Catholic Church and property. Nowadays for the WT persecution is bad in the long run (monetarily), but you still can get temporary growth and public interest, so it's not all bad for the armchair dubs in leadership.

    It's a crap shoot as to the outcome, this is just my poker hand. :-))

    Randy

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