I imagine Bonafide was a bit over-the-top, trying to launch some new website.
There are plenty of websites, and the most damaging one to WTBTS is Google Search Engine that helps people find all the other ones.
The guy that claimed he was going to bring down the WTBTS
by Scarred for life 66 Replies latest jw friends
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keyser soze
There have been a few people who have come on this forum with such grand ideas. There have been countless "big announcements" that supposedly had evidence against the WTS that would seriously cripple it. They generally amount to nothing. The JWs who are in won't listen to it, and the rest of the world just doesn't care. That's the difference between the WT and larger corporations. A lot more people are affected by corruption in Enron or GM.
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isaacaustin
I would think that an effort to bring down the WT would require much more support than just that of exJWs. And as All TIme Jeff brought out, and I agree with him there, JWs are nothing to those not effected by them. They are a legend only in their own minds.
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Satanus
If ray franz couldn't do it, how is joe blow gonna? Without trying, ray has broken the jw spell on more people then anybody else.
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drew sagan
What "brings down" an organization like the JWs (or any religion for that matter) is internal fighting. Just look at the World Wide Church of God or even the Episcipal Church.
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OnTheWayOut
I think Randy at freeminds might be tied with Ray (or slightly ahead in helping people), but Randy does help people find Ray's book.
It is irrelevant, as everyone does as much as they want to or can. It ain't a race. There's a lady in the Chicago area that is trying right now to form a new type of support group, beyond just a meetup. That's awesome. I linked her to Randy's advice on freeminds on how to do just that. She may only help a couple of people or a handful, but it's what she wants to do. It all helps.I ain't knocking Bonafide's efforts either. I appreciate Six Screens of the Watchtower and their phone conferences, but claims of how much it might accomplish are probably just hype for marketing. Whatever gets you free press- power to you. Same for Bonafide.
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rebel8
I think Bonafide stopped posting here because of the bullying.
I think he's a nice guy, overconfident, with his heart in the right place.
I think it's veeeeeeeery hard to bring down a religion or any belief system.
Google "James Randi 60 Minutes". There are plenty of total liars who have been completely exposed, and people go on believing in them. In the case of Randi, he intentionally created a fake prophet, and when he told people it was a ruse, people wrote the prophet letters saying, "Don't listen to what they're saying about you, we still believe in you."
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Spook
You can't bring them down because unlike other corporations they are supported from within and from the bottom.
This religion is supported by people who, overall, love it more than anything else in the world. What you think doesn't matter. The truth doesn't matter. They are in love with their extended family.
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C. T. Russell
Everyone brought up some good points. AllTimeJeff laid out a good foundation for discussion.
First: AllTimeJeff “What corporation has been brought down, why, and how?”
That is an expansive topic that would require allot of research, I hope someone does it . But for the sake of argument let’s assume we did that research and assumed that corporate failures fall within two categories:1. Market forces, competition, mismanagement and corruption.
2. Government, regulations and negative public opinion.
Let’s also assume #1 does not apply. We can assume there are no major missteps with finances, and that everything is on the up and up (WTWizard).
Let’s also assume there will not be a major deathblow. That there is not going to be any major scandal within the Org. (dutchstef) i.e. “Never get caught in bed with a dead women or a live boy”. Or any “crippling” lawsuits concerning child abuse or pedophiles.
That would leave #2 Government, regulations and negative public opinion.
Second: AllTimeJeff - "There is always going to be fringe groups around. JW's are the ones that we know best. Say you were to succeed, what next? Scientology? Mormons?"
For this let’s say “Not my problem!”. A long time ago I found myself in a foreign country. I, my bookbag and my custom cover NWT with my initials on it. I decided to have lunch at the local “mall”. While enjoying the local delicacies in walked 30 Mormon missionaries. I was not a Gilead graduate; therefore I was not trained in hand-to-hand combat. Let’s just say I lost. I may be bad but if x-JW’s chooses a different cult that’s their problem, not mine. We can only hope that one of those boy’s who returned to Salt Lake City, UT (or Clearwater, FL) is going to take care of their piece of the world and hand a steaming pile of kick ass to their respective cults.
So why focus on JW’s? Maybe we have blood our hands. Maybe the cosmic scales of justice need to be balanced. Maybe we have some bad karma. Maybe we contributed to the problem. Allot of people have been victims of the WTS, but can we really say we were victims? Can you? Can an SS Officer say he was a “victim”? If a JW Nuremberg trial was held we would all be hanged. I propose that any JW who received an envelope of money, while eating breakfast, can’t really say they were a victim.
Third: AllTimeJeff - "Only individuals leave JW's. Liberated, borgbot JW's who need cult like structure would simply seek out another group. As Randy "Dogpatch" Watters brought out in one of his essays, there are people who group, gravitate to, and even need, a cult. Sad, but true."
JeffT - "If the organization disappeared tomorrow the followers would go follow some ne else, or become suicidally depressed."
LouBelle - "As long as people believe in what they have to offer - they will keep going."
I think this is an area that needs clarification:
1. Does “Bringing down the Watchtower” mean converting or changing the minds of millions of people?2. Or does it mean opposing the Watchtower Corporation? (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc., Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, Inc., Religious Order of Jehovah's Witnesses, Inc., New York, Kingdom Support Services, Inc., New York, International Bible Students Association, Inc., Wachtturm-Gesellschaft, Selters/Taunus, Germany, Jehovas vittnen - Bibelsällskapet Vakttornet, Sweden, Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Of Australia, Inc., Australia, Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society of Britain, Inc., England, Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Canada, Inc., Ontario)
The first is impossible. The second is not so invincible. So let’s go with bringing down the corporation. Difficult yes, but not impossible. How would you bring down the Watchtower Corporation?
But first allow me one cheesy quote from BSG:
“Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons…. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. So take your piety and your moralizing and your high-minded principles and stick 'em some place safe…. I've got a war to fight.” – Saul Tigh
Now this is just for the sake of argument. But let’s say you didn’t care. Let’s say you weren’t worried about support groups, or helping people. If you weren’t concerned about helping x-JW’s make a smooth transition. If the idea of x-GB members standing in line at the DMV or trying to figure out how to apply for Medicare for the first time didn’t bother your conscience. If former CO’s working part time at Kroger’s bagging groceries didn’t bother you in the least. If you wouldn’t think twice about former Bethelites with no job skills struggling to make ends meet with their wives in a janitorial business.
If the idea of stripping the Paradise hope from every grandma, single mother and child would not keep you up at night.
If you were willing to be called by the FDS an Apostate. If being called an Opposer, Judas and Antichrist would bring joy to your heart. If you were willing to smash the feet of clay and become a Star named Wormwood. If you could bring the whole of Pleiades down on Brooklyn, Wallkill, and Patterson without a second thought.
How would you bring down the Watchtower Corporation?
For arguments sake of course… -
rebel8
How would you bring down the Watchtower Corporation?
No need to reinvent the wheel. Take a cue from the successful reduction of tobacco trade--a racketeering network much more powerful and wealthy than wts will ever be. These are proven techniques, not only anecdotaly but there is overwhelming evidence of their effectiveness:
Promote regulation and restriction of activities by lobbying lawmakers.
Collect stats and facts so you can stay on message when advocating and know your facts, not just emote and ramble.
Change social norms by influencing public opinion (education, letters to the editor, press releases, etc.).
Promote adoption of voluntary policies that restrict activities (advocate with colleges, malls, etc. to not allow recruitment on their grounds, etc.)
Educate non-legislative decision-makers (keep surgeons/anesthesiologists/pediatricians/gyns informed annually of jw issues with blood, child abuse).
Monitor activities and report all violations of the law (trespassing, illegal use of mailboxes, child neglect, human rights violations, stalking).
Expose scandals on a very public scale by use of the media. (Not small audiences--big.)
Reduce the growth of new members by keeping those vulnerable well-informed about the dangers of cults and their scandals.
I have said this many times on this forum. Ex-jws are generally unwilling to use these proven techniques, for some unknown reason. Instead they want to do things that have been proven ineffective:
- Pleading with current members to leave
- Making yourself look like nutjobs to current members and the public
- Telling people facts that don't matter to them (arguing doctrine, for example)
- Targeting all efforts at current members instead of preventing new members from joining (if new enrollment was eliminated, the org would wither)