Recently disfellowshipped prominent Assembly overseer in Western Europe now speaking out against the Watchtower org.

by the research lady 226 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  sammielee24

  RENAII...have you ever read Crisis of Conscience?? Every single JW should read it. Ray Franz was NOT an apostate..he was disfellowshipped for association with a disfellowshipped person. The GB decided to allow LIES to flow to all JW's that Franz was an apostate and warn all JW's to run in fear if the see the book. Ray Franz does NOT slam the WTS in his book, he simply states facts and for an organization to warn their members AGAINST reading such a book, means they are just afraid that they will be exposed for what they are - nothing.

  I would like to know if you EVER read the book Renaii.

  sammieswife.
• 

  winstonchurchill

  The idea that Armageddon would mean horrific torturous fiery death for 99.9% of the world's population came later in Rutherford's tenure - probably prompted by his alcohol-fueled fantasies of revenge on his "enemies".

  Sir, I have two words for you: Freddie Franz.

  The idea was also convenient as it served to fire-up the rank and file. That kind of leadership needs constant confrontation to thrive. It was war time, and they needed to instill a 'theocratic' warfare spirit into the average JW. Cold War only made it worse (you read WT's from the 50's and they talk about the battle of democracy against evil communism).
• 

  Spike Tassel

  the basis, if any is valid, is principled love
• 

  cognizant dissident

  single mom with no partner and a challenged child is the lowest of the low in the congregation pecking order.

  Lets be fair to the argument and not get personal...

  This whole thread evolved into an argument because Reniaa discounted the testimony of this Assembly Overseer without ever hearing it. Instead she speculated about his personal agenda without any evidence or knowing anything about him.

  My comment was simply an attempt to speculate about what her motivations might be to behave in such a manner that is clearly mind-boggling and frustrating to many posters here. Since she questioned the assembly overseers motivation in speaking out, it is only right that her motivations also be questioned. Or do you hold some posters to a different standard of argument than others?

  My post was not a personal attack on Reniaa as I do not look down in the least on single mothers, df'd or not, or those with sick or disabled family members. I was often friends with those ones when I was a JW as I couldn't stand the self righteous, elderette types. It is an often repeated lament of those ones, in the congregation and on this forum, that they, in fact, did feel as if they were ignored in the congregation and on the bottom of the unofficial, (but oh, so obvious), JW social heirarchy. If I had a dime for every time I heard single mothers complain about how left out they were socially, I'd be out shopping right now!

  I cannot be "fair to the argument" with Reniaa because there is rarely any rule of logic to her arguments. Instead, we are treated over and over again to the same straw man, black or white, and circular reasoning parroted directly from Watchtower literature. She totally ignores valid points made by other posters and simply moves from thread to thread spouting the same nonsense.

  I stand by my speculations about why Reniaa posts here, as un-PC as they may be. Are they to be taken seriously as logical and fair argumentation? Absolutely not, but then I haven't seen any of that on this thread or in Reniaa's posts. That's really not what we're doing here is it?
• 

  reniaa

  Hi Cog

  show me one set of God's people that didn't have organisational issues due to imperfection?

  angels came down and currupted mankind adding genetic abnomalies so needing a flood.

  israelites spent 40+ in a desert because they couldn't take direction from God's through his chosen one Moses.

  Jews kept trying to find loopholes to get past God's laws ultimately not recognising the prophesied messiah when he came, technically they are still looking for him.

  Appostles constantly arguing over who was the greatest even after Jesus's death people kept trying to put individual appostles up above others and constant need for counciling off Paul. Divisions were rife as well as people continuing to sin wilfully against God's words.

  How can we expect to be any better?

  WE ARE IMPERFECT! this is a fact we must live with until Jesus returns, war, drug abuse, arrogance, Greed, powermongering and so much more are facts of our lifes until Jesus's return but should we wallow in them?

  We are constantly warned by the bible these are things we will have to deal with. We are constantly under attack by satan who wants his proof against God. but we have no choice but waiting until Jesus comes, until...

  1 Corinthians 13:10
  but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

  Are our governments and other religions any better? No they show all the same issues and problems but Jesus teaches forgiveness and repentence. We can wallow in this world enjoying Lots wife's choice but are we prepared for the consequences of God accepting that we have rejected his offer in favour of what we currently have?

  1 John 2:17
  The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.

  I am Jehovah's witness because they follow Jehovah and his son Jesus and try and implement bible laws not perfectly and constantly fighting culteral and satanic pressures to warp viewpoint of what is acceptable. I Follow them because doctrinely they are like a full meal after the babyfood of Christendom that can add no bibilical depths to it's heaven and hell doctrine.

  The thing is why would apostates tempt me when their condition has become so far removed from God than it was before? and they have turned away from God completely not just the JWs?

  Matthew 12:43-45 (New International Version)

  43 "When an evil [a] spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation

  Reniaa
• 

  Spike Tassel

  regarding the title, I think that should be no surprise, that's probably what got him DF'd in the first place.
• 

  metatron

  Do the imperfect actions of people invalidate Jehovah or the words of Jesus?

  YES.

  How so? The clock is ticking, Reniaa. The Watchtower is forced to be very careful about exposing the growing rot within the organization because it contradicts their whole notion of a "spiritual paradise" prepared for Armageddon's coming.

  While this goes on, the world is not standing still. In ten to twenty years - and possibly much sooner! , science is going unlock the practical secrets of life - stem cells and antiaging. Watchtower promises of regeneration and indefinite life will be fulfilled by worldly men. Jehovah's Witnesses will become largely obsolete along with much of Christendom.

  The lack of concern by the Watchtower as regards serious moral issues will only accelerate their demise in a world that's leaving them behind in the dust. Indeed, this deep concern about child molesting originated in the WORLD and hit the organization unprepared - something sheepishly admitted by Watchtower leaders like James Brown, in unguarded moments.

  A grossly imperfect organization that stumbles morally amidst a world making rapid technological advances will have the effect of nullifying the Bible promises once held so dear by adherents. Perhaps they could try to build a good Christian brotherhood that would still be relevant in the future but I seriously doubt they have the motivation to do so.

  metatron
• 

  Hoping4Change

  WE ARE IMPERFECT!

  This has no bearing on the matter. I stand behind my original comment

  The "imperfect men" defense does not stand, and no one should ever be made to believe that they need to "wait on Jehovah" to fix the organizational practices; nor should family be turned against family for directly questioning and opposing the leadership of the WTBTS on this matter. Those exposing this are not villans with axes to grind; declaring them as such (either directly or indirectly) should be considered a form of defamation of character. There is a problem, it needs fixing. I find it beyond imagination that Jehovah would require anyone to sit idle while children suffer. One other thing, everyone knows pedophilia is a societal problem and not just a JW problem; the way JW's have dealt with it IS a JW problem that deserves to be known by the public with its' leadership held accountable (just as how the Catholic Church dealt with it was a Catholic problem and it's leadership needs to be held accountable.)
• 

  blondie

  In the Bible people did not always just wait for God to do something:

  *** w97 12/1 pp. 30-31 Is All Complaining Bad? ***However, "a murmuring arose on the part of the Greek-speaking Jews against the Hebrew-speaking Jews, because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution." Rather than condemn these complainers as troublemakers, the apostles took action to rectify the situation. Yes, just complaints made with due respect and in the proper spirit will be humbly listened to and acted upon by those who have oversight in the congregation.—Acts 6:1-6

  *** w97 12/1 p. 30 Is All Complaining Bad? ***

  Is All Complaining Condemned?

  Should we conclude, then, that all forms of complaint are to be condemned? No, we should not. The Bible indicates that there are many injustices in the flawed world in which we live that rightly call for correction. In an illustration, Jesus made mention of an unrighteous judge who begrudgingly meted out justice to an oppressed widow so that she would not "keep coming and pummeling [him] to a finish." (Luke 18:1-8) In some respects we too may have to persist in our complaints until wrongs are rectified.

  (1 Corinthians 1:11) 11 For the disclosure was made to me about YOU, my brothers, by those of [the house of] Chlo´e, that dissensions exist among YOU.

  *** w96 6/15 pp. 28-29 "Recognize Men of That Sort"***No doubt worried about the welfare of their brothers in such a troubled spiritual climate, Achaicus, Fortunatus, and Stephanas undertook a journey to visit the apostle Paul in Ephesus. In addition to such disturbing news, it is possible that they were carrying to Paul a letter from the congregation containing questions on these issues. (1 Corinthians 7:1; 16:17) Evidently, these three brothers were not the only ones who were concerned about the situation. Paul, in fact, had already received news from "those of the house of Chloe" that dissensions existed among congregation members. (1 Corinthians 1:11)
• 

  Pistoff

  Yet another thread taken over by Dumb and Dumber:

  Reniaa:

  I do not see their pedophile policy as flawed only in that possible police checks could be implemented for elders if they aren't already but the current policy of now just advising persons involved into going to the police seems to be the only way to go.

  Really? That is not the policy; the policy is to call New York to see what they say, and then do what New York tells them. NO current policy has the elders encouraging them to take it to the police as the very first choice, especially if it is not a reporting state. Once again, you are ignorant of the critical facts.

  and Spike Tassel:

  Reniaa makes valid points, on topic, with sound reasoning, despite objections to the contrary. Although she did walk away with no announcement many years ago, she is involved in an off-&-on Bible study now that she's on JWN. The more accurate understanding she gets and puts into practice, the more wisdom she has, and the more holy spirit she has access to. The same is true for the rest of us, I dare say.

  The fact is, Reniaa lives in a fantasy world. She cannot evidently tolerate being an active witness, or the witnesses won't tolerate her, but she spends her time here defending policies that she really doesn't know much about. There are people on this forum whose lives have been damaged by the child sexual abuse policy of the Watchtower, but she happily goes on defending it as if it were the most reasonable policy in the world. It just defies understanding.

  She hasn't read any outside sources about YHWH but defends the incorrect pronunciation of it.