Name Things JWs Believe That Are Not Actually Biblically Provable

by minimus 231 Replies latest jw friends

  • reniaa

    hi Chalam

    If you read my reply I said both since the bible clearly allows Jesus as Gods representative to fulfil things on behalf of Jehovah but this does not make Jesus God as indeed the bible clearly keeps him separate to God. Jehovah's name is the one above all as Greek writers quoting from hebrew scripture confirm but phillipians clearly shows Jesus is given authority in his name to save on Jehovah's behalf but if you want confirmation of Jesus's separateness and the authority the following scripture really is the proof text of it.

    1 Corinthians 15:23-28 (New International Version)

    23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet." [a] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    sidepoint - 23 is an interesting scripture clearly defining a 'firstfruits' which according to trinitarians is a figment of JW imagination but thats not the discussion.

  • Witness 007
    Witness 007

    Jehovah is real and not pulled out of Moses backside.

  • oompa

    Renny STILL does not want to talk about how origins do not really matter......and that even wt says this when it suits them.........oompa

    hypocrites!....baseless rule makers

  • Chalam

    Hi reniaa,

    Thanks for your post and your reasoning.

    Forgive me, but I am not really getting a direct answer to this question. I will explain the importance below.

    Here it is again.

    Who is the name by which we are saved? Jehovah or Jesus?

    You see, for example, if I am drowning then it would be great to know the lifeguard, especially his name. Calling someone else's name isn't likely to get his attention.

    Now the bible is very specific regarding this matter. It says the only name to call is Jesus.

    So who's name do those that need to be saved call upon? Jesus or Jehovah?

    Now the NWT has presented both names to be saved, Jehovah in Acts 2 and Jesus in Acts 4.

    However, Acts 4 says there is only one name by which we can be saved so you see the problem.

    Now there is no such problem in the multitude of bibles I use. Acts 2 says call on the name of the Lord, Acts 4 says Jesus is the name to be saved by.

    Romans 10:9 and 1 Corinthians 12:3 both say "Jesus is Lord" so Acts 2 and 4 are talking about the same person.

    Now, hopefully you can see why we are aggrieved that the NWT substitutes the OT name for God to fit their theology where the Greek word is kurios Lord or Theos God.

    Anyhow, let me know what you think.

    All the best,


  • androb31


    "pagan festivals are still practised as pagan and to pagan things they at best pay lip service to God and Jesus but people have to decide for themselves on this."

    From the September 22, 2003, Awake!, page 24, 'The Piñata - An Ancient Tradition':

    "We found that for many people in Mexico, the piñata has lost its religious significance and is considered by most to be just harmless fun...A main concern is, not what the practice meant hundreds of years ago, but how it is viewed today in your area. Understandably, opinions may vary from one place to another. Hence, it is wise to avoid turning such matters into big issues."

    "The Governing Body spreads their hypocritical and contradictory stances through the various pages of Watchtower Society publications. Unfortunately, many Jehovah's Witnesses don't see it. However, let's make it crystal clear with a little research on Piñatas:"

    "History of Piñatas...The origin of the Piñata is Chinese not Hispanic. It was used to celebrate the coming of spring. As a result of Marco Polo's adventures into China, he introduced this Chinese custom which was adopted by the Spanish as well as by the French and Italians. The Spanish brought this custom to the new world when they conquered Mexico. The Piñata became part of the Posada in the Catholic culture."

    "The logic and reasoning the Watchtower Society uses makes no sense whatsoever. If you are not taking a stand against Piñatas, why take a hard-line stance against other things with religious and pagan origins? Piñatas are steeped with both pagan and religious ties. Why and how is Piñatas harmless fun but things such as Easter Eggs, Christmas Trees and New Year's celebrations are unacceptable for Jehovah's Witnesses?"

    quote from

    James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

    It is JW law to avoid Christmas, Easter and B-days because of their Pagan origins. Why two sets of scales?

  • minimus
  • DaCheech

    it's called circular reasoning.

    put them in a round room, and tell them there an answer in the corner...... they will keep on going in circles

  • minimus

    DaCheech, that's why I made that face!

  • reniaa

    hi androb, Camel and gnat situation that the bible itself allows for.

    Hi chalam I am off to bed but in answer to your points Jesus is the mediator and ransom through him we are saved and Jehovah is the sender and originator so though him we are ultimately saved. if you read the greek sccriptures you can see the appostles understood that things are from and for God but through Jesus.

    I am to tired to talk on what 'in someone name' means and it is so much more than just shouting out 'lord lord'

    but it was the Jews that removed YHWH from hebrew scriptures they did something not sanctioned by Jehovah.

    John 17:25-26 (New American Standard Bible)

    25 "O (A) righteous Father, although (B) the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that (C) You sent Me;

    26 and (D) I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that (E) the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

    with no greek scriptures then and YHWH in the hebrew scriptures 7000 times JEsus cold only have meant YHWH and no other name.

    Hi isaac

    You and I will never agree but the arguments that people use saying "well okay! they didn't do it but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it" is very weak, 'All scripture is inspired' beneficial etc so two birthdays deliberately wrote about in bad terms as pagan celebrations in bad light biblically are not to be ignored the principle of non-involvement is there.

    Isaiah 35:8
    And a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness. The unclean will not journey on it; it will be for those who walk in that Way; wicked fools will not go about on it.

    2 Corinthians 6:16-18 (New International Version)

    16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people." [a]
    17 "Therefore come out from them
    and be separate, says the Lord.
    Touch no unclean thing,
    and I will receive you." [b]
    18 "I will be a Father to you,
    and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty." [c]


  • androb31


    "hi androb, Camel and gnat situation that the bible itself allows for"

    you mean:

    "hi androb, Camel and gnat situation that the bible WT itself allows for" to suit it's own purposes.

    The WT is the originator of the "we don't do anything of pagan origin", a little bit pagan/a lot pagan, ok to do/not ok to do hypocricy, not the bible.

    Here's the camel and gnat passage, notice what is said just prior in vs. 23.

    Matthew 23:23, 24 (NIV)

    23 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. 24 You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

    Imagine if the WT was faithful to their own rules.

    You see, it's not the pinata party I was raising issue with, which in itself is a small thing. The point I was making is the arbitrary application of the underlying principle when it suits/doesn't suit their purpose. The WT writers state in this article that origins are not important but the current understanding is what matters.

    "We found that for many people in Mexico, the piñata has lost its religious significance and is considered by most to be just harmless fun...A main concern is, not what the practice meant hundreds of years ago, but how it is viewed today in your area. Understandably, opinions may vary from one place to another. Hence, it is wise to avoid turning such matters into big issues."

    I find it odd that they even rasied the issue in the first place if it's such a gnat situation. Seems like they're trying to justify their stance. I also find it odd that they make concessions like that in the Spanish segment which is one of their fastest growing segments. I guess they wouldn't want to offend the spanish speaking brothers or slow the growth.

    Reminds me of the point made by Ray Franz about the bribery that the WT turned a blind eye to in regards to military service in mexico yet at the same time they held to a hardline stance against a political party card in Rwanda. Many lives were lost as a result. I guess that is a camel gnat situation as well.

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