"I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ." Galatians 1:6-10
Are You Paul or are you Saul?
by reniaa 347 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
dinah
Are we not as a human race in a reinstatment period awaiting Jesus's return and the free gift he brings with him, after Adams rebuke?
Jesus came back in 1914. Get with the program.
-
Midget-Sasquatch
Renaia,
Typically its the WTS to launch the first salvo, calling perceived enemies "tools of Satan". Of course passionate ones on the other side may respond tit for tat.
But lets put it simply. I've never seen Issac or others call the rank and file jw demonic. Just duped. And if someone is seeing another person being fleeced, and they have the average amount of empathy and standard idea of whats just or not, they're going to try to warn them.
Its not about destroying people. Its about dismantling a mechanism thats sapping people of their lives under whats very likely, false pretenses. We can say that the WTS is duplicitous because we have ample evidence of them covering up true information, if it could be harmful to their survival as an organization.
-
sacolton
The Watchtower believes Jesus is forever dead.
While Christians all over the world celebrate the fact that Jesus Christ has risen from the dead and is alive forevermore, the Watchtower Society teaches Jehovah’s Witnesses that the man, Jesus Christ is dead, forever. This belief began early in the Watchtower’s history as Charles Russell, the first president of the Society, wrote in Studies in the Scriptures, vol.5, 1899, p.454, “....the man Jesus is dead, forever dead....”.
-
OnTheWayOut
Reniaa, if you can tear yourself away from your WT literature, I would recommend that you learn more about Paul.
This is a new book I have seen at Borders and haven't read it yet, but from skimming it, I think it might help you:
http://www.amazon.com/First-Paul-Reclaiming-Visionary-Conservative/dp/0061430722
From the editorial review of
The First Paul: Reclaiming the Radical Visionary Behind the Church's Conservative Icon (Hardcover)
Paul is second only to Jesus as the most important person in the birth of Christianity, and yet he continues to be controversial, even among Christians. How could the letters of Paul be used both to inspire radical grace and to endorse systems of oppression—condoning slavery, subordinating women, condemning homosexual behavior? Borg and Crossan use the best of biblical and historical scholarship to explain the reasons for Paul's mixed reputation and reveal to us what scholars have known for decades: that the later letters of Paul were created by the early church to dilute Paul's egalitarian message and transform him into something more "acceptable." They argue there are actually "Three Pauls" in the New Testament: "The Radical Paul" (of the seven genuine letters), "The Conservative Paul" (of the three disputed epistles), and "The Reactionary Paul" (of the three inauthentic letters). By closely examining this progression of Paul's letters—from the authentic to the inauthentic—the authors show how the apostle was slowly but steadily "deradicalized" to fit Roman social norms in regards to slavery, patriarchy, and patronage. In truth, Paul was an appealing apostle of Jesus whose vision of life "in Christ"—one of his favored phrases—is remarkably faithful to the message of Jesus himself.
I would hate to be like either Paul or Saul. I am not ready to approve of the killings of those who disagree with me, and I don't want to be a homophobic who thinks women should be barefoot and pregnant and silent.
-
reniaa
Okay sacolton and isaac what are your proofs they are a false prophet?
That they are strict on morality? last time I looked in the bible, God is as well?
That they are keeping us in expectation of armageddon and not advising us to get to attached to things around us while imperfect? Last time I looked the bible says this as well?
That they say not to kill and not to get involve with authorities and yet obey them? again this is bible.
That they believe in our blessed God Jehovah and his ACTUAL beloved son Jesus? I believe this too from the bible.
That they have leaders of Men? Jesus set this up first with the appostles he knew we would need them.
The bible says False prophets would do miracles and wonders? I do not see the witnesses claiming these.
They do not make original Prophecy as you mentioned but stick to bible prophecy?
Reniaa
-
Mr. Majestic
I would say that I see myself as Paul, but more from the angle of how the Pharisees saw him. He turned on a rules oriented institution which proved very harmful and he showed them from the scriptures that the religion was now rejected by god, and he spoke out the same as did Jesus who said of the religious leaders
23 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying: 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses.
being that they had assumed their position and went onto keep the people in tyrannical subjection. Many times he liberated people from the former religion being that the religion ruled with harshness and didn’t care enough about its subjects. I do the same with the WT society. It is harmful and I love to help people see the truth about it and after opening their eyes I let them decide for themselves if they still wish to continue with it or not but I do so without coercion. In that way I see that I am saving lives.
So yes, I’m definitely up for being Paul….
-
sacolton
In 1972 the Jehovah's Witness Watchtower claimed to be the prophet of God.
IDENTIFYING THE "PROPHET" -- "So does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?...This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian Witnesses...Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a 'prophet' of God. It is another thing to prove it," (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1972, p. 197). (See Deut. 18:21 .)
- 1897 "Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874," (Studies in the Scriptures, vol. 4, p. 621).
- 1899 "...the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty' ( Revelation 16:14 ), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced," (The Time Is at Hand, 1908 edition, p. 101).
- 1916 "The Bible chronology herein presented shows that the six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th Day, the 1000 years of Christ's Reign, began in 1873," (The Time Is at Hand, forward, p. ii).
- 1918 "Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection," (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, p. 89).
- 1922 "The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures than 1914," (Watchtower, Sept. 1, 1922, p. 262).
- 1923 "Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge," (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1923, p. 106).
- 1925 "The year 1925 is here. With great expectation Christians have looked forward to this year. Many have confidently expected that all members of the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. This may be accomplished. It may not be. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his people. Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year," (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1925, p. 3).
- 1925 "It is to be expected that Satan will try to inject into the minds of the consecrated, the thought that 1925 should see an end to the work," (Watchtower, Sept., 1925, p. 262).
- 1926 "Some anticipated that the work would end in 1925, but the Lord did not state so. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything," (Watchtower, p. 232).
- 1931 "There was a measure of disappointment on the part of Jehovah's faithful ones on earth concerning the years 1917, 1918, and 1925, which disappointment lasted for a time...and they also learned to quit fixing dates," (Vindication, p. 338).
- 1941 "Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord's provided instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon," (Watchtower, Sept. 15, 1941, p. 288).
- 1968 "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an 'end to the world', even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing?.. Missing from such people were God's truths and evidence that he was using and guiding them," (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968).
- 1968 "Why are you looking forward to 1975?" (Watchtower, Aug. 15, 1968, p. 494).
A JW might say that the organization is still learning. If that is so, then how can they trust what they are taught now by the Watchtower? Will what they are being taught now change also?
A true prophet of God won't err in prophesying. Only a false prophet does. The Jehovah's Witness organization, that claims to be a prophet of God, is really a false prophet. Jesus warned us by saying, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect -- if that were possible" ( Matt. 24:24 ). -
superpunk
I think there are alot of similarities between the Watchtower Society and Paul. Paul, symbolically, represents almost all organized religion if you think about it.
Saul was someone who seemed opposed to the God the Christians worshipped. Then he became Paul. He told all the Christians that Jesus and him had a talk, and Jesus wanted him to minister to the congregations. Didn't really matter that there was no proof of this. Pretend to be blind for a few days, and suddenly regain sight, gullible people will believe whatever you want them to. After that, you can set up all sorts of rules and degrade the status of women in the congregation, all of which seems to go against what the revolutionary Jesus was all about. But, since Paul had them convinced that he had a direct line to Jesus, they went along with it.
-
isaacaustin
Reniaa:
Okay sacolton and isaac what are your proofs they are a false prophet?
My reply: We showed you this on a thread recently. Go find it an re-read it.
That they are strict on morality? last time I looked in the bible, God is as well?
My reply: So are many Christians. But the Wt becomes 'masters over one's faith" in this regard.
That they are keeping us in expectation of armageddon and not advising us to get to attached to things around us while imperfect? Last time I looked the bible says this as well?
My reply: Yet they also prophesy falsely in regards to this.
That they say not to kill and not to get involve with authorities and yet obey them? again this is bible.
My reply: So do other Christians.
That they believe in our blessed God Jehovah and his ACTUAL beloved son Jesus? I believe this too from the bible.
My reply: So do other Christians. And even if you one were to concede the doctrine on Father and Son as you beleive it...that is not unique to the JWs.
That they have leaders of Men? Jesus set this up first with the appostles he knew we would need them.
My reply: Other Christian groups also have leaders in men. Are you claiming apostolic succession here?
The bible says False prophets would do miracles and wonders? I do not see the witnesses claiming these.
My reply: It speaks of false prophets do miracles and wonders....does not say that is a requirement to be one. Deut 18 spells out what makes one a flse prophet. Hanani was a false prophet- he did not do any miracles or wonders. he simply took what God had said would happen and gave a time limit within which it must happen, and put God's name on it- that is what made him a false prophet.
They do not make original Prophecy as you mentioned but stick to bible prophecy?
Reniaa
My reply: Irrelevant- they put God's name on their fables spun off of Bible prophecy...or in some cases create prophecy/chronolgy off of historical data not intended to be used as such.