Are You Paul or are you Saul?

by reniaa 347 Replies latest jw friends

reniaa

When I address imperfection I address it in two ways, I accept things like you will find that most people have sinful tendencies Paul himself afmitted he was always fighting one although I don't think he ever revealed it, I know in places he admitted he could write a good letter but in person he was less than impressive. I can imagine the critics now "Oooo did you see that Paul, I thought he would be so powerful but he such a poor speaker I bet he didn't write those letters at all!"
So when apostates say look russel and rutherford where such sinful men they did abc and d becasue I read some gossip at the time about it well that is just foolishness to me. Where the appostles perfect? or did they fight and bicker among themselves having to be reproved on it?
But the second issue is Doctrine and this is where I am more exacting because of the bible, there is no excuse to teach a different message to the bible and I have to my satisfaction found the JWs to be teaching the most bible reflecting Doctrine at this time, this doesn't preclude Certain things still being refined but When I look at christendom they are going away from bible teachings and reflecting public opinion more and more each day.
I truly hate trinity and Cross as Doctrines because I see them as directly causal in all the divisions in christianity today, Once people started saying they have a truth beyond the bible they can and did make it be anything even if it conflicted with bible teaching.
Reniaa
Black Sheep

Ren, you are forever insinuating that members of this forum are propagating 'hate', but who is it here that is propagating hate?
I truly hate trinity and Cross as Doctrines..
When you say stuff like this, you are attacking doctrines and a God that sincere Christians on this forum believe in.
It is not us WT Apostates that are propagating hate on this website. It is you.
Spike Tassel

 
Yizuman (Post 1913) writes: You can go door to door all you want Reniaa, count your time and hope for the best. But works alone will not save you...
"And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." Romans 11:6
And I ask : What is that grace if not undeserved kindness? And how do we benefit from undeserved kindness if not by showing it to others, by our listening carefully to the real underlying concerns, and by then providing them the confidence that helps them apply the Kingdom message (more fully) in real life. So, you're right, even having some of the right works is not enough, the right motives and understanding must be at work also. Otherwise, our efforts go for naught. Saul the Pharisee went door to door, just as Paul the Christian did. But Saul was on a search-and-destroy mission, whereas Paul's mission was one of search-and-rescue. Grace is like forgiveness, we benefit from it only as we avail ourselves of it and practice it in our dealings with others, whomever they might be.
reniaa

Hi yizuman
there is adifference between looking for men for salvation and accepting the annointed doctrine and the leaders in Men. I think the bible is very sound on this, it isn't the odd scripture but a bible fact.
Numbers 1:16
These were the men appointed from the community, the leaders of their ancestral tribes. They were the heads of the clans of Israel.
Romans 12:7-9 (New International Version)

7 If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8 if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.
Hebrews 13:17
Obey yourleaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.
Hebrews 13:24
Greet all yourleaders and all God's people. Those from Italy send you their greetings.
Revelation 5:10
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they willreign on the earth."
You might be able to argue that Jw leaders are not doing their job correctly in your opinion so pick a faith with leaders you do agree with. but the Principle of having leaders and be organised as a people under these leaders with responsibility is a complete bible theme and anyone who thinks differently is just ignoring the bible on this
Reniaa
Spike Tassel

Well said, Reniaa.
reniaa

Hi TD are you claiming exceptional circumstances, I am always wary of the 'We are different now so it's okay to ignore bible teaching?" argument, there is no biblical precident for time being a factor in scriptural observance.
I have no problem with a Religion that while promoting the truth of bible scripture are exposing teachings that are against or not from the bible.
My issue is making the destruction of one religion Your goal completely and I find this more heinous if you are not offering them a replacement for the loss of faith in someone.
Saul wasn't interested in making them be Jews again he just wanted to destroy them, this is not Jesus's way.
And diamonditz using Jesus's anger at the temple being a money making opportunity as some sort of justifcation is very weak because Jesus knew the Jews had gone wrong in teaching and he talked about this but he offered them the New covenant and they got this chance as God's chosen people before the gentiles because despite their wrongdoings they still were God's chosen People!
When witnesses Go on the door they offer the paradise hope and knowledge of Jehovah first and address whatever questions that come up, this is a lot different going from door to door with a saul-like spirit say these people are evil, demons and paedophiles etc. If you cannot see the difference then you haven't read the greek scriptures.
This difference is your motivations
Do you want to destroy a religion
or offer people a new one?
Reniaa
Chalam

Hi,
Ren, you are forever insinuating that members of this forum are propagating 'hate', but who is it here that is propagating hate?
I agree. I have seen the word used by several JWs on this board. There was one recently who appeared and told us that they hated us apostates.
When you say stuff like this, you are attacking doctrines and a God that sincere Christians on this forum believe in.
I agree.
I truly hate trinity and Cross as Doctrines because I see them as directly causal in all the divisions in christianity today, Once people started saying they have a truth beyond the bible they can and did make it be anything even if it conflicted with bible teaching.
As I stated in the "Jesus is Michael" thread, there are five verses on Michael and thousands which point to Jesus being God, not "a god". So who is going "beyond the bible", the WT?!
The WT teach you to hate the cross because they hate what it stands for, salvation.
1 Corinthians 1:18 (New International Version)

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. All the best, Stephen
Mr. Majestic

A number of people inc sir82 mrmajestic, isaac, and the borg have expressed the opinion that destroying someone faith in Jehovah's witnesses (I refuse to say wtbs which is just apostate silliness) and Jehovah because invaribly it means both since in following Jehovah we are unique. that by destroying faith in these means they are free?
Free to do what?
This question has already been answered in our previous posts. We have seen through religion and offer people life without religion in their lives. It is not so much as what they will do when they are free but more from what they are being freed from. When you see people imprisoned and oppressed you desire to help alleviate where you can.
they are released into the shark infested waters of life with no hope not even of resurrection. Jesus was clear they had to be part of the body but which Body? Or are you guys saying you think as long as they are released from Jws they will get ressurrected by Jesus? and have eternal hope even when they no longer know which god is real?
What you are failing to account for here Reniaa is that we are no longer deluded by faith in any way, so we don’t see that there is necessity for there to be a ‘resurrection’, you don’t need a ‘body’ to belong to and that the hope that a belief will give them is only a fanciful story from a book that is only as pertinent as any other fairy story. We have seen through it all and know that it is not true.
What freedom is there in destroying my faith so I have to rebuild it from scratch thats if I even can?
If you wish to hold onto your faith then that is entirely up to you. But the freedom that is beyond faith is probably beyond what your indoctrinated mind could grasp right now. So it would be pointless trying to explain it to you.
If you take away someones God how can you give yourself a congratulating slap on the back?
Easy..!! If someone is suffering under the yoke of a ‘god’ that doesn’t exist, under an organisation that causes great harm to thousands and clearly lie about things, and you can free someone from that, that surely has to be worth a huge pat on the back when you can liberate them. Their faith was oppressive to them and completely unnecessarily so, being that none of it was true. If you can see that and free someone from such an institution then that is a wonderful thing to have the power to do.
I think the problem here for you Reniaa is that we can see life without the delusion of faith and you find that whole concept difficult to grasp, being that you desperately seem to need it for some reason, which is clear for everyone here to see.
reniaa

HI chalam
you and I just have adifference of opinion, you follow trinitarian christianity and I follow One God Jehovah Christianity, We will never agree doctrinely, but if you went from door to door preaching Gods message as you understand it, trying to bring people to your God and in process they may give up previous beliefs I would not blame you and I would respect you.
I actually respect any religion that makes an effort to do the preaching manifest from the bible.
This is a debate forum and I am freer in my opinion on here than I would be in Preaching environment unless directly asked.
I have had people tell me they believe aliens are God and they are waiting to be taken up by a UFO to the next plain of reality or a guy that said Dolphins are the future of man and have had the intelligence to give up being like men (this man used to have annual holidays to commune with dolphins he called it a uniquely spiritual experience). Did I laugh in there faces and say they believed total rubbish and were evil demonic etc? Nope I tried to find a common ground with them from the bible to build a upon, with the alien person I showed spirit beings from the bible God's word, with the dolphin guy I used natures scriptures. I was not there to destroy but to give a new message. This was how I was taught as a witness and from the example from the bible!
Hi mrmajestic
You think taking away any belief in God is the best thing for people? and your alternative gives us life beyond death?
Hope for eternal life?
Reniaa
reniaa

hi spike tassel
lol you managed in one sentence to say what I have tried to in this whole thread :S thank you, I think I need to learn less is more.
But Saul was on a search-and-destroy mission, whereas Paul's mission was one of search-and-rescue. Grace is like forgiveness, we benefit from it only as we avail ourselves of it and practice it in our dealings with others, whomever they might be. -spike tassel
the point here is very clear.
Reniaa

Are You Paul or are you Saul?

Romans 12:7-9 (New International Version)

1 Corinthians 1:18 (New International Version)

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God

Share this