Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...

by Tuesday 347 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • middleman

    All I will say is this. Show me anything in nature, a plant, human, animal etc that is "begotten" from a source. Does not this "begotten" have the same nature, DNA, essence, substance etc as the one who begat him/her/it? Why would the case of Jesus be ANY different?

    Dogs begat dogs

    Rats begat rats

    Cats begat cats

    Roses begat roses

    humans begat humans


    Not really that hard...unless you like driving blindfolded!!! It's amazing how JW's weasel out of this...AMAZING!!!


  • middleman

    betsy wrote:

    "Reniaa - Would you agree that JW's wouldn't need this lengthy and roundabout explanation for Isa 43:10,11 if they simply translated John 1:1 in line with mainstream scholarship? It seems that once you start manipulating scripture to suit your theology it has a compounding effect on complexity of thought required to understand what seems quite simple otherwise.

    Incidentally are you Janko from In any case thanks for the cut and paste from that site. Don't you think properly referencing your cut and paste might have been a bit more honest?"

    Excellent post bro excellent!!! Are you sure you don't want to be a Christian? lol...

  • reniaa

    hi chalam you say you believe proverbs is Jesus because that explains that Jesus was the beginning of Jehovah creation therefore he could be with him from the begining.

  • middleman


    Please tell me that you are Janko and you wrote this post on 11/21/2006.

    Good eye betsy...looks like reniaa has some splaining do do...

  • reniaa

    So besty! translate a scripture contrary to it's original meaning so it's in-line with mainstream chrisitianity! interesting thought but nope.

    there is nothing complicated about isaiah there is only One God but the bible allows for other to be called gods and you cannot deny it because it is there in print and explained by Jesus and paul.

  • reniaa

    John 4:24
    God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

    I'll thing you'll find spirit begats spirit.

    Rather than God makes gods which isn't a trinitarian teaching anyway.

  • middleman

    Let me say this what I heard recently. Jesus came to the earth as the only begotten, but when he left the earth he became the first begotten...since Christians after his resurrection were then offered the chance of being "spirit begotten/regenerated" and grafted in as heirs.

  • reniaa

    i'm not janko but I do quote from him as I said in earlier post, he has a good knowledge of the bible on these deeper subjects sometimes I struggle to find the scriptures that he knows better than myself.

    I also use thirdwitness who also has some good scriptorial presentations.

  • middleman

    Proverbs 8------->;&version=9;

    First few verses: " 1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

    2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

    3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors"

    Hmm nope Jesus is not transgender...nope.

    12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

    So is prudence a male or female...or is this pictured poetry?

  • UnDisfellowshipped

    Reniaa, how are you?

    In ancient Israel, the firstborn son received twice the inheritance and more honor and authority than the other sons, and upon the father's death, he was regarded as the head of the household. (Deuteronomy 21:17; Genesis 48:13-14; Genesis 49:3; 2nd Chronicles 21:3)

    At Psalm 89:27, God promised that He would "place" or "appoint" David (or the coming Son of David, the Messiah) into the position of "Firstborn," which meant, in this context, the "Most High of all the kings of the earth," the one who held first place. At Exodus 4:22, God declares that "Israel is My firstborn son," that is, Israel would hold first place in God's eyes among all other nations, and Israel would be the most treasured and loved nation to God.

    There was clearly a "position" or "rank" of "firstborn" in the Bible -- this was the position of being in "first place" or the "highest rank."

    At Colossians 1:15-18, the Apostle Paul taught that Jesus is the "Firstborn" of all creation because all things were created through Him and for Him, He existed before anything was ever created, and He is the Firstborn because He is the One who has "first place" in all things. Since Jesus is called "Firstborn" because He created all things and existed before all things, this shows that He is not called "Firstborn" because He was the first thing created.

    Paul himself, at Colossians 1:18, explains that he is referring to the position or rank of "Firstborn," because Paul says Jesus is the one who has "preeminence" or "first place" in all things. Therefore, Paul was not saying that Jesus was the first creature created by God. (Compare also Revelation 1:5)

    If Jesus Himself were part of creation, how could He exist before one thing was ever created by God? Did God create Jesus through Jesus? (See John 1:3; Colossians 1:17)

    At Hebrews 1:6, God commands all of His angels to worship The Firstborn Son, which would be idolatry if The Firstborn were a creature.

    If you are using the New World Translation, please compare Colossians 1:15-17 in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation, the American Standard Version, and any other modern translation, and you will see that the words "[other]" are not found in the Greek text. The words "[other]" were added by the translators of the New World Translation in order to support their belief that Jesus was created by God, and then He created all other things. The Watchtower Society even admits this in the "Reasoning" Book, on pages 408-409 (italics and bold added by me):

    "In harmony with everything else that the Bible says regarding the Son, NW assigns the same meaning to panĀ“ta at Colossians 1:16, 17 so that it reads, in part, "by means of him all other things were created . . . All other things have been created through him and for him." Thus he is shown to be a created being, part of the creation produced by God."

    My question is, if the entire Bible clearly teaches that Jesus was created by God, then why does the New World Translation need to add words that are not in the Greek text in order to show that Jesus is "a created being, part of the creation produced by God"? Didn't God know what He was doing when He inspired His Apostles to write the Scriptures? Why does He need "help" from the Watchtower Society?

    Finally, if Paul had wanted to say that Jesus was the "First-Created One," instead of "Firstborn" there was a different Greek word specifically for that which he could have used, but did not choose to use.

    Plus, if you want to take the "Firstborn" as totally literal, then wouldn't The Heavenly Father have to have a WIFE, and a MOTHER for Jesus?

    As for whether or not Jesus is a created thing, please read John 1:3 in the New World Translation.

    I would love to read your thoughts or comments on any of this.

    In addition to this, in that Genesis passage you posted above, did you notice that Jacob says that The Angel is the God of Abraham and Isaac, and that this Angel-God is the One to whom Jacob is praying for a blessing on his descendants?

    Who was this "Angel"? Why did Jacob say that this Angel was his God and the God of Abraham and Isaac? Why did Jacob pray to this Angel for a blessing?

    If you want to read more information I posted about Jesus being The Firstborn, please check out this thread:

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