Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...

by Tuesday 347 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    part 9 he uses some personal metaphors to try an explain how Jesus can be God etc these are fine but not biblical and so inadmissable, I'm glad he didn't do God is an egg with 3 bits one that would sound like a bad 'yolk'. :S

    he then uses the old "Jesus must be god because he said he would raise himself. I can see them heading for getting stumped again but here is the answer from Jw's.

    Did Ezekiel really destroy Jerusalem as he said he did?

    Did Jeremiah really destroy kingdoms as Jehovah said he would do?

    Did Jesus really resurrect himself as he said he would?

    Why were Ezekiel and Jeremiah given credit for something they didn't do? And would the same reason apply in the case of what Jesus said?

    It is clear and obvious that Ezekiel and Jeremiah did no such destroying of kingdoms. Ezekiel was in exile and couldn't have possibly had a hand in destroying Jerusalem. But since they foretold it, it was just as if they did it. Since Ezekiel's and Jeremiah's prophecies were inspired and were certain to be fulfilled their uttering the prophecies made them as good as done.

    It was the same with Jesus' prophecy. AS the scriptures say, Jehovah raised Jesus,(“God raised this One up on the third day.”--Acts 10:40)but Jesus could speak of doing so just as Ezekiel spoke of destroying Jerusalem himself and just as Jehovah spoke of Jeremiah as destroying kingdoms himself.

    Additionally, Jesus willingly and obediently laid down his life thus he gained a resurrection for himself.

    John 10:17, 18:“The Father loves me because I lay down my life, to receive it back again. No one has robbed me of it; I am laying it down of my own free will. I have the right to lay it down, and I have the right to receive it back again; this charge I have received from my Father.”—New English Bible.

  • besty
    besty

    yadda yadda yadda - lets get back on track now.

    Jesus is a god. (john 1:1)

    Jehovah says before and after me there is no other god. (Isa 43:10)

    Which is it?

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    Part 10 now I feel ready to slap these witnesses if they are witnesses.

    they allow him to manipulate the meaning of mark here.

    Mark 13:32-33 (New International Version)

    32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert [a] ! You do not know when that time will come.

    Matthew 24:36-37 (New International Version)

    36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, [a] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. they let him say this lack of knowledge is because jesus is limited on earth akkk this is clearly not what the verse is saying, it is making the distinction between father and son. So the SON never has this knowledge whether on earth or in heaven afterwards when he is restored, only the father has this knowledged!

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hi,

    The important thing in this verse is "formed".

    Isaiah 43:10 (New International Version)

    10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD,
    "and my servant whom I have chosen,
    so that you may know and believe me
    and understand that I am he.
    Before me no god was formed,
    nor will there be one after me.

    However, JWs claim that Jehovah created Jesus, who they state is "a god".

    All the best,

    Stephen

  • Chalam
    Chalam
    Philippians 2:5-8 (New International Version)

    5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in very nature God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
    7 but made himself nothing,
    taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
    8 And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    and became obedient to death—
    even death on a cross!

    All the best,

    Stephen

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    besty I just showed you biblical scriptures that allow that people can be called gods or a god by Jehovah and others and in a scripture where jesus himself admits this and incidently confirms he is God's son and not God. the argument here isn't that there can be no other God's accept The God Jehovah but that the bible despite this can call people and things god/a god which it clearly does in many cases but it still doesn't make them The God.

    You either apply this to all or none of them. if Jesus by virtue of being called ' a god' is The God himself by trinitarian reasoning then moses angels satan are also The God too. he tried to say legitimate gods as a distinction but the bible doesn't say these are ordinary ' a gods' but Jesus is the legitimate 'a god'. There is no reason to think Jesus is not with the a gods' as the bible calls them quite the contrary.

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    with Isaiah 43:10, 11, which says: “‘You are my witnesses,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that you may know and have faith in me, and that you may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.’”

    A sincere Bible student is helped by noting carefully the context of those words. The Almighty God Jehovah was contrasting himself with the man-made idols in nations surrounding Israel. Jehovah asks: “To whom can you people liken God, and what likeness can you put alongside him?” Certainly not an image made by a metalworker or carved from a tree. (Isaiah 40:18-20; 41:7) Such “gods” could not ‘stretch out the heavens like a gauze,’ as Jehovah did. (Isaiah 40:21-26) Further, Jehovah is able to predict the future; surely the idols of the nations cannot ‘tell the things that are to come afterward, that we may know that they are gods.’ (Isaiah 41:23) This thought is repeated at Isaiah 43:9, where Jehovah states: “Let national groups be gathered together. Who is there among them that can tell this? Or can they cause us to hear even the first things? Let them furnish their witnesses.” Rightly, the Almighty says: “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.”—Isaiah 42:8.

    So the context establishes that the Almighty is hurling a challenge at the so-called gods of the nations. Being mere idols with no divine power, they certainly are not gods to be worshiped; they are really nothings. Jehovah continues: “Does there exist a God besides me? No, there is no Rock. I have recognized none. The formers of the carved image are all of them an unreality, and their darlings [cast from metal or carved from wood] will be of no benefit.” (Isaiah 44:8-17) Consequently, the context of Isaiah 43:10 makes it clear that Jesus is not being considered; the “gods” under consideration are the impotent idols of the nations.

    The word “God” or “god” is commonly used regarding a superhuman object of veneration. Thus, in the minds of many people, “god” means either (1) the Supreme Being, the Almighty, or (2) a false god, such as an idol. However, the Bible allows for other usage. We can see this from Psalm 82:1, 2. There the Divine One (Jehovah God) is distinguished from human judges whom the psalmist terms “gods.” Jesus himself later referred to this passage. Because he had spoken of Jehovah God as being his Father, some Jews wanted to stone him. To their accusation that he was ‘making himself a god,’ Jesus responded: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? If he called [those human judges] ‘gods’ . . . do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?”—John 10:31-36.

    Unquestionably there is only one Almighty God, even as the apostle Paul wrote: “For even though there are those who are called ‘gods,’ whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords,’ there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, . . . and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.” (1 Corinthians 8:5, 6) The Lord Jesus Christ is no false god, no demon god, no mere idol. He ‘is the reflection of Jehovah God’s glory.’ (Hebrews 1:3) Thus it is fitting for John 1:1 to acknowledge Jesus as “a god,” or “godlike” (Johannes Schneider). Janko

    I have quoted another source for this bit he says what I said earlier but with more clarity

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hi reniaa,

    For what its worth I agree that Proverbs 8 talks of Jesus a little way into the chapter in the same way that Isaiah 53 does.

    Notice how Isaiah talks of Jesus' life and death in past tense hundreds of years before His birth?

    All the best,

    Stephen

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hi reniaa,

    Isaiah 43:10-11 (New International Version)

    10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD,
    "and my servant whom I have chosen,
    so that you may know and believe me
    and understand that I am he.
    Before me no god was formed,
    nor will there be one after me.

    11 I, even I, am the LORD,
    and apart from me there is no savior.

    In similar fashion to verse 10, notice how verse 11 says there is no saviour apart from the Father?

    How then can Jesus be the saviour?

    Once again that would contradict the words of the Father unless Jesus words are true "I and the Father are one".

    All the best,

    Stephen

  • booby
    booby

    Reniaa, Reniaa, how great thou art. Jesua is "a" god but not god like my dog Jenna is "a" dog but not dog. What is my pet then?

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