Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...

by Tuesday 347 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    john doe is the whole bible inspired of God?

    it is jehovah's own words in exodus where he declares he will make moses a god to pharoah. so he was not lying in isaiah but he was in exodus?

    that JEhovah clearly allows that we can be godlike and recognised as gods and so called "a god" is revealed all the scriptures I showed you but there can only be One God.

    rather than take the bible explanation that things can be called god especially if they have access to god's holy spirit trinitarians try to split God into three natures but this isn't biblical, the bible explains about 'a gods'. but it doesn't explain a '3 who's in one what' god it is completely silent on the subject.

  • John Doe
    John Doe
    john doe is the whole bible inspired of God?

    Keep in mind I'm an atheist. However, I'm very familiar with 2 Timothy 3:16.

    it is jehovah's own words in exodus where he declares he will make moses a god to pharoah. so he was not lying in isaiah but he was in exodus?

    No one has claimed that. In the video, substantial time is spent talking about "legitimate" gods. "Jim" even makes a statement that "you can make a god out of anything."

    What I find ironic is that every objection you're making in this thread was thoroughly discussed in the videos.

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    Trinitarians say that “first-born” here means prime, most excellent, most distinguished; thus Christ would be understood to be, not part of creation, but the most distinguished in relation to those who were created. If that is so, and if the Trinity doctrine is true, why are the Father and the holy spirit not also said to be the firstborn of all creation? But the Bible applies this expression only to the Son.

    According to the customary meaning of “firstborn,” it indicates that Jesus is the eldest in Jehovah’s family of sons. (2) Before Colossians 1:15, the expression “the firstborn of” occurs upwards of 30 times in the Bible, and in each instance that it is applied to living creatures the same meaning applies—the firstborn is part of the group. “The firstborn of Israel” is one of the sons of Israel; “the firstborn of Pharaoh” is one of Pharaoh’s family; “the firstborn of beast” are themselves animals. What, then, causes some to ascribe a different meaning to it at Colossians 1:15? he is the firstborn of creation and part of that group.

    Rev. 1:1; 3:14, RS: “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him . . . ‘And to the angel of the church in La-odicea write: “The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning [Greek, ar·khe′] of God’s creation.”’” (KJ, Dy, CC, and NW, as well as others, read similarly.) Is that rendering correct? Some take the view that what is meant is that the Son was ‘the beginner of God’s creation,’ that he was its ‘ultimate source.’ But Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon lists “beginning” as its first meaning of ar·khe′. (Oxford, 1968, p. 252) The logical conclusion is that the one being quoted at Revelation 3:14 is a creation, the first of God’s creations, that he had a beginning. Compare Proverbs 8:22, where, as many Bible commentators agree, the Son is referred to as wisdom personified. According to RS, NE, and JB, the one there speaking is said to be “created.”)

  • besty
    besty

    The point is that JW's believe Jesus was originally a legitimate god.

    To verify this belief you could refer to John 1:1 NWT - In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God and the Word was a god.

    The dilemma then is reconcile this belief with Jehovah's words at Isa. 43:10,11: NWT

    "You are my witnesses" is the utterance of Jehovah, "even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that you may know and have faith in me, and that you may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed and after me there continued to be none. I - I am Jehovah and besides me there is no saviour."

    The question is why did Jehovah get it so wrong about there being other Gods or gods?

    Of course the standard translation of John 1:1 doesn't present this dilemma, nor the need for messing about with capitalized G's and definite articles.

    For the purposes of this thread its best to leave Acts 4:12 out of it.

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    the Jws made the mistake of letting him lead them down the 'legitimate path' but the bible doesn't make that distinction. there is Jehovah the One true Almighty God and the other gods that are talked of as gods and a gods but not The God. Jesus in john 1:1 is said to be a god this is the correct translation and he is also said to be with God that scripture basically shows that he is in 'a god' section and that by being with God he cannot actually be God. the structure of it does not allow for that conclusion whether he is a legitimate god or not isn't the issues, Jehovah can call people and things gods but that doesn't make them The Almighty God.

  • besty
    besty

    don't lead me down the 'Almighty' route - I'm not seeing that word in either of the 2 scriptures quoted above - they don't make that distinction

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    Salvation issue is cleared up simply if you are representing God therefore you can be a worker for his purpose erm as Jesus is said to be so God is our saviour because he provided Jesus who does the saving and thus becomes our salvation.

    there is a bible president for people doing god's work on behalf of God so both them and God getting the credit for it.

    the angel in the early books is often spoken of as being God but it is clearly an Angel representing God speaking on behalf of god and since Jesus is said to be God's word probably Jesus too.

  • besty
    besty

    So Jehovah omitting the word 'Almighty' from Isa 43:10,11 was an oversight on his part or at least poor communication skills?

    And John made the same mistake in the 1st verse of his Gospel?

    Bit careless isn't it?

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    besty you simply cannot be with God and God at the same time the verse doesn't allow for that, in fact trinitarian natures doesn't allow for it either by calling all 3 completely God. thats why early trinitarians hated that scripture it also doesn't mention holy spirit and makes the distinction the Jesus is only a god that is with The God.

    jesus makes the distinction himself in explaning gods.

    When charged by opposers with ‘making himself a god,’ Jesus’ reply was: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?” (John 10:31-37) Jesus there quoted from Psalm 82, in which human judges, whom God condemned for not executing justice, were called “gods.” (Ps 82:1, 2, 6, 7) Thus, Jesus showed the unreasonableness of charging him with blasphemy for stating that he was, not God, but God’s Son.

  • besty
    besty

    yadda yadda yadda - lets get back on track now.

    Jesus is a god. (john 1:1)

    Jehovah says before and after me there is no other god. (Isa 43:10)

    Which is it?

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