Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...

by Tuesday 347 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Chalam

  Hi Vinny,

  Armageddon is a battle in a war on planet earth, nothing more Revelation 9:16. It is only mentioned specifically once by name in the bible Revelation 16:16, although it is referred to on a few other occasions. What makes it a bit significant is that marks the start of Christ's Millennial reign. Thereafter, the day of judgement is at the "end of the age" Matthew 13:38-40 which leads to everlasting life for some and the second death (everlasting torment) for others.

  So are you asking will Christians die in the battle? Yes.

  There will be "tribulation saints", those that miss the rapture Matthew 24:40-42 but don't take the mark or worship the beast Revelation 7:15

  The important thing to note is that everyone who dies will get resurrected, some to everlasting life and others everlasting shame Daniel 12:2

  Read Revelation 20 Revelation 21 They are pretty easy to follow and have it all in a nutshell.

  All the best,

  Stephen
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  Vinny

  So, do you think a professed Christian that believes the bible is God's word, follows Jesus steps, prays to God sincerely etc, but who also believes Jesus is not equal to God, would also fall under the category of those that will not make it?

  I understand about missing the mark, living double lives, being hypocrites etc not making it. But, does, in your opinion, a believer that is none of those things, yet is one who has nonetheless concluded that Jesus is not equal to the Father, and prays to the father through Jesus instead; will such an individual (in your opinion) be granted everlasting life or not?

  I am trying to get you to answer the question at hand. But you seem to be slipping around it many times. I realize this is probably not easy for you to say what you really think. But go ahead and tell me what you do believe. If you don't mind.

  Thanks again,

  v
• 

  Chalam

  Hi Vinny,

  I think you are majoring on the wrong point. Here is the major IMHO.

  John 3:3 (New International Version)

  3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

  Luke 17:20-21 (New International Version)

  The Coming of the Kingdom of God

  20 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

  Titus 3:3-7 (New International Version)

  3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

  Wanna be saved? Repent (turn away from sin/wrongdoing), ask God for forgiveness, thank Jesus for His free gift, the sacrifice of His body and blood, invite Him to be Lord of your life, ask for His Spirit to come and renew you.

  This is not a trivial thing, you need to count the cost as Jesus says Luke 14

  However, if you do these things in faith you will be born again. If so I promise you before long you will have some clear assurance that it has happened.

  All the best,

  Stephen
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  Vinny

  Hi Chalam, if you read my original post you would see I touched on many of those things already. Here, I'll share them again:

  The bottom line, in my opinion, is this: Whether Jesus is equal to the Father or not; Whether the Holy Spirit is Personal or Impersonal; Whether there is a burning Hell or eternal sleep-like non existence; whether there will life in Heaven itself or on a Paradise Earth; whether the 144,000 is literal or figurative and probably another 100 different things I could list here, what REALLY matters here is that people, as professed followers of Christ, live each day of their lives trying to imitate him as best they possibly can. Applying His teachings in their life. The Golden Rule for example. The Sermon on the Mount teachings. Cultivating the Fruitage of the Spirit. Being like the "Good Samaritan". Showing Love to all mankind. Working more on humility. Being less judgmental. More patient, more forgiving, more helpful and loving as well as another 100 other things I could post here. These things are what really matters. Whatever these other things end up being, we can all know one thing for sure, if the bible is true it will be wonderful. Whether life after death is in Heaven or on a Paradise Earth, it will be fine with me and probably anybody. Whether Jesus is equal to the Father or subject to Him, it should not change people's love for either of them. Just focusing on being a True Christian is what worship should be all about. The rest will all be fine, whatever it turns out to be. I'll be sure to take it. If I am ever given the opportunity. I have not dug my heels in on any of this. I cannot even guaranty the bible is true. There are mistakes in it. And I do believe that this Trinity issue should not divide christians the way that it does today. I do not believe that if a christian believes that Jesus IS equal to the Father in all things, yet is still a "Believer", while also applying Christ's teachings in their personal life, helping others to do the same etc, that they are DOOMED TO DESTRUCTION as the JW's teach and believe.

  **** Back to current.

  But you see Chalam, you are sounding like a politician now and dancing all around the question that was asked many posts ago, and many times now. Why can't you just answer the question straight up? It's a simple enough question.

  If a human being has what you consider a wrong understanding about Jesus' exact role, and believes Jesus is not equal to the Father, but rather is subject to the Father (though is doing everything else a Christian ought to), will that person still be granted everlasting life or not?

  It's time to Answer up!

  No more dancing now. I'm waiting for a yes or no answer. Surely you have an opinion, right?
• 

  Chalam

  Hi Vinny,

  Yes the things you pointed out are excellent.

  Applying His teachings in their life Agreed! The Golden Rule for example Love God and Love one another? Agreed! The Sermon on the Mount teachings. Absolutely, agreed! Cultivating the Fruitage of the Spirit. Essential! Being like the "Good Samaritan". Faith without works is dead! Agreed. Showing Love to all mankind. Agreed. Working more on humility. Essential, pride is a killer. Being less judgmental. Non judgmental is the goal! More patient, more forgiving, more helpful and loving as well as another 100 other things I could post here. Agreed! These things are what really matters. These are all the true signs of being born again, that is what matters. Without it you are dead and heading for the second death. The bottom line, in my opinion, is this: Whether Jesus is equal to the Father or not; Whether the Holy Spirit is Personal or Impersonal; Whether there is a burning Hell or eternal sleep-like non existence; whether there will life in Heaven itself or on a Paradise Earth; whether the 144,000 is literal or figurative and probably another 100 different things I could list here, what REALLY matters here is that people, as professed followers of Christ, live each day of their lives trying to imitate him as best they possibly can. I agree, God will not give us a theology test before we can enter the pearly gates. However, the test is if we know Jesus and He knows us, that is all the counts. All the best, Stephen
• 

  Chalam

  If a human being has what you consider a wrong understanding about Jesus' exact role, and believes Jesus is not equal to the Father, but rather is subject to the Father (though is doing everything else a Christian ought to), will that person still be granted everlasting life or not?

  Yes if they are born again, no if they are not.

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  Vinny

  Well, this is perhaps as straight an answer as I'll get from you. You wrote : "I agree, God will not give us a theology test before we can enter the pearly gates. However, the test is if we know Jesus and He knows us, that is all the counts." **** So I can then assume you are saying that even if somebody does not believe in the trinity, but from their own reading of the bible believe that Jesus is subject to the Father; that as long as they are sincerely trying to be a real christian, then that would be good enough for God. So then why so much fighting about trinity this and trinity that? Why not simply focus on exactly what you just wrote showing what's really important here? You see, this is what I've been saying all along. TOO MUCH time and arguments have been on the trinity nonsense. There are far more important issues to discuss. Non-trinitarian Christians believe there is the Father, the Son and the Holy spirit. Trinitarian Christians believe there is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. What EXACT ROLE each plays is far less important than LIVING YOUR LIFE AS A FOLLOWER OF CHRIST TO THE VERY BEST OF YOUR ABILITY. This is why these threads are a bore for many people today. You are arguing over minor details, IMO. Sure, Watchtower is not what it tells people it is. And most JW's have no idea what the entire JW picture looks like. People die because of these policies. Families are broken because of this religion. They are very arrogant in their views. Their past is full of holes, mistakes and embarrassments. And I have no problems confronting anybody that claims otherwise. But trinity is not what does it for most people that I have ever met. And if you think a believer and follower of Jesus can get everlasting life, while not believing in the trinity, then you've just made my point. Thanks for answering the question. All the best, Vinny
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  Vinny

  I missed your follow up reply. So, you say if one is born again, regardless of whether they believe God is a trinity or not, they get LIFE in your view.

  So why bother then with trinity if it does not matter?
• 

  reniaa

  hi yizumman

  Sorry despite what people say I tend only to pop on here my life allowing somedays I get more time then others. You are doing what Bible Jim did throwing out an apparently easy question with a hidden agenda.

  Easy answer is God isn't limited at all......but he puts his own limits on himself in the bible, he says he is only ONE YHWH, he says he cannot die, He says no man has seen him.

  These three things alone stop trinity being the truth however much they twist MAN-MADE rhetoric to try and fit around them. While I do not limit god I also do not create a God from speculation. God has provided his divinely inspired word to teach us about him and that should be what we use not Personal leaps of speculation! We could say he was green with purple spots and ate moon cheese well he's not limited so he can be, but it doesn't mean this is the truth! and the bible clearly shows that we can't see him so no idea what colour he is so putting a colour to him would be speculation :S but I apply the same rule to trinity too, the doctrine of trinity isn't in the bible!!! NOWHERE ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY 3 in ONE! It doesn't even say Jesus is Almighty God the best they have is John 1:1 that says Jesus is just 'a god'/Godlike which is used on other entities too like satan, like the angels.

  Hi booby

  you ask me is Jesus Divine you are using the same tactics as yizuman hidden agenda question easy answer is yes JEsus has divineness just like the bible is divinely inspired, this is a word that pertains to God but it is also for things that come from god, were Does Jesus get his holy spirit from? He himself says he gets it from God! If Jesus is Born from God he will have qualities from his father that are divine.

  JWs Never deny Jesus is Gods actual firstborn Son! in fact it is trinitarians that do deny this as Biblejim clearly shows! they say his son-ship is a postion not a truth from God!

  Romans 3:4
  Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."
• 

  Chalam

  Hi Vinny,

  So I can then assume you are saying that even if somebody does not believe in the trinity, but from their own reading of the bible believe that Jesus is subject to the Father; that as long as they are sincerely trying to be a real christian, then that would be good enough for God. So then why so much fighting about trinity this and trinity that? Why not simply focus on exactly what you just wrote showing what's really important here? You see, this is what I've been saying all along. TOO MUCH time and arguments have been on the trinity nonsense. There are far more important issues to discuss. IMHO not so. If you believe in the Trinity you believe Jesus is God. Also that the Holy Spirit is God and is the Spirit of the Father and His Son, all big core issues. Non-trinitarian Christians believe there is the Father, the Son and the Holy spirit. JWs would claim to be non-trinitarian Christians. They have missed the real Jesus, He is Lord and God like Thomas said and not an angel as per their myth. They have slammed the door in the face of His Spirit by saying He is an "active force" not a being and doesn't have a voice, feelings or emotion and such. Trinitarians believe there is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. In a totally different way as I have just demonstrated. What EXACT ROLE each plays is far less important than LIVING YOUR LIFE AS A FOLLOWER OF CHRIST TO THE VERY BEST OF YOUR ABILITY. This is why these threads are a bore for many people today. You are arguing over minor details, IMO. I think these issues are major details, as obviously do other posters in the thread. Else why does the WT vehemently attack the Trinity at every turn? If Jesus is God then His words, example and commands are paramount and we should worship Him If He is not then we can carry on like JWs in respect to Jesus, pay him a little "obeisance" and largely sideline him in favor of "jehovah". Without Jesus they can't get to the Father! Getting the idea yet? Sure, Watchtower is not what it tells people it is. And most JW's have no idea what the entire JW picture looks like. Neither did I! I though "well they read the bible, they try and follow it, they have some false theology but they are on the right lines towards salvation". How wrong I was! My wife had a prophecy and a vision whilst we were praying for my JW friend one day. Knowing almost nothing about JWs she told me "they are in complete darkness". I was a little taken aback. It was only after really getting into understanding their beliefs over the course of some months and years that I have come to understand that. Anyhow, God can soon turn on the lights for them, ask passwordprotected :) People die because of these policies. Families are broken because of this religion. They are very arrogant in their views. Their past is full of holes, mistakes and embarrassments. And I have no problems confronting anybody that claims otherwise. But trinity is not what does it for most people that I have ever met. And if you think a believer and follower of Jesus can get everlasting life, while not believing in the trinity, then you've just made my point. I actually doubt if they can. The question you asked was concerning Jesus and His role with the Father rather than the Trinity or His Divinity right? Can I ask why this question is so important to you? PM me if you like. All the best, Stephen