so they never claimed to be an inspired prophet?

by ninja 189 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • androb31
    androb31

    Reniaa,

    Your post up top says:

    "Yes I agree there are false prophets the bible says so and as I said above the scripture shows what their fruitage is and it gives a handy list in Jesus's own words, which you avoid using by jumping to the more ambigious deut scripture to try and make dates prophecy but the context of that one shows that they make up a prophecy and put times on it nothing to do with eagerness over existing bible prophecy."

    I'm calling your bluff. Can you please provide a commentary on the highlighted portion as to how you determined the context says "that they make up a prophecy and put times on it" which has "nothing to do with eagerness over existing bible prophecy." at Deut. 18:20-22

    Because I just read the passage and it most definitely didn't say:

    “‘However, the prophet who presumes to make up a prophecy and put times on it that I have not commanded him to make up or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die unless he was just showing eagerness over existing bible prophecy. And in case you should say in your heart: “How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?”when the prophet makes up a prophecy and puts times on it in the name of Jehovah and the made up prophecy does not occur or come true, that is the made up prophecy that Jehovah did not speak, unless of course he was just showing eagerness over existing bible prophecy. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it unless it was in connection with existing bible prophecy. You must not get frightened at him.’

    Here's the passage for your reference (NWT):

    “‘However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your heart: “How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?”when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.’

    Notice that nowhere does this passage say that the prophet has to make the claim to inspiration, but merely "presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak".... "and the word does not occur or come true"

  • androb31
    androb31

    By the way Reniaa I'm curious. How many hours are you counting for this thread on your time slip. Must've been a whopper. Heck, one of these threads per week and you'd meet the dub-publisher national average without even breakin' a sweat.

  • whatcanIsay
    whatcanIsay

    Number 1 through me for a loop! It had me going! until I realized it was not Jehovah's utter it was the 144,000 during the assemblies! Just had a laugh. Thanks for your research.

    You do realize that prior to 1930 during the assemblies the so called 144,000 class would do utterances? They would have many small groups with one person in the middle who would utter, speak in tongues. Rutherford thought the message received was good some of them useful, but he said that time had past and it was time for them to stop.

    In 1920s, speaking in tongues(utterance) was popular and I think Rutherford used it for a short time to gain followers who believed in speaking in tongues.

    I wonder if you could look it up in WT under utterance to see what you will find? I know it was in Rutherford's book.

  • iknowall558
    iknowall558

    Reniaa ------

    If God himself came down and told you " Dont listen to anyone who thinks they know when Jesus is coming or when the end of the world is gonna be" " Only I know when things are gonna happen, not anyone else, so dont even bother trying to work it out. "If someone says something is gonna happen, cos I, myself am saying it, but you know...........it doesn't happen,.. then guess what..............IT DIDN'T COME FROM ME !....cos I'm God......and I dont get things wrong!

    ...YOU WOULD STILL ARGUE WITH HIM WOULDN'T YOU ?! ........But wait.........HE HAS ALREADY TOLD YOU THIS HIMSELF HASN'T HE.......where was it again ?

    Ah...........Acts 1 : 7 / Luke 21 : 8 / Deut 18 : 20 - 22. Are you actually telling God again that those PLAINLY worded scriptures are AMBIGUOUS? You are daring to

    question.......NOT the posters but GOD HIMSELF. It's his words that are before your eyes and you are trying to tell him that what he's saying is not really what he means.

    Your leaders do the same!

    You are saying the setting of DATES is irrelevant.....Acts 1 : 7...TIMES & SEASONS / Luke 21 : 8....DUE TIME... / Matt 24 : 36....DAY & HOUR .

    All of these verses speak to those who are trying to work out DAYS, MONTHS, YEARS.........you know...DATES.. on when something is going to happen. God says JUST DON'T DO IT !

    Have the JW org listened to this ? See for yourself..............

    Taught for 50yrs that Christs invisible presence began in 1874 , then changed it to 1914

    Taught that Kingdom rule started in 1914 but for years taught that this took place in 1878

    Believed the 'last days' began in 1799, the resurrection of the annointed took place in 1918 whereas before they said it begain in 1881

    From 1914 and particularly 1919 onward they said the 'harvest' was underway, before that 1874to 1914 was the 'harvest' and 1914 would see the destruction of the world system.

    Fall of Babylon the Great would be 1919, before that they said it would be 1878 with the completion of it being round about 1914 or 1918

    1925 would mark the return of Abraham , Isaaac, and Jacob.......(they even built a house for them and called it Beth Sarem) ...this was predicted in 1917, 1881 and 1888. They sold the house in 1948.

    1975 Armageddon would take place

    HOW MANY OF THESE DAYS, TIMES, SEASONS....DATES , SAW THE FULFILLMENT OF THEIR PREDICTIONS ? That's right ! NONE. Why?......answer Deut 18 : 20 - 22.

    For the record, it must be concluded that Beth Sarim alone bears a testimony to the fact that its a monument to a False Prophet and to False Prophecy......Rutherford at one time asked, "How are we to know whether one is a true or a false prophet?" His answer........"If one is a true prophet, his message will come to pass EXACTLY as prophesied. If he is a false prophet, his prophecy will FAIL to come to pass............(WT May 15 1930 pg 154)

    A TRUE PROPHET OF GOD WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO PROCLAIM FALSE PROPHECIES.

    The org. have a 100% failure rate. Gods TRUE prophets have a 100% success rate.

    You have said that the org. doesn't make original prophecies but only proclaims those already found in scripture. It has published predictions centered on certain dates NOWHERE found in scripture. God's prophets dont ever speak with a mixture of truth and error. The org. claims to be a prophet of God, yet dispels any responsibility that comes with that claim........funny eh?

    And yes! Biblical prophets perhaps did make mistakes.......BUT THEY DID NOT MAKE MISTAKES WHEN THEY WERE PROPHESYING. No genuine biblical example of an 'error' can be found in the prophecies of any TRUE prophet of God. Like I said.....100% success rate!

    So feel free to keep on defending your org. who has CLEARLY gone against scripture.........who truly are a FALSE prophet and whom God has said NOT TO GO AFTER THEM.

    If you were listening to him......cos you truly LOVE the scriptures... then this is exactly what you would and should be doing!

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    Iknowall you continue to say putting dates on actual bible prophecy is prophecy in itself when the scripture you use don't say this lets take them all shall we?

    acts 1:7 talks about man not knowing the time the context in no way implies this is false prophecy, it simply says....

    Acts 1:6-8 (New International Version)

    6 So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

    7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

    were is the condemnation as false prophets here?

    Luke 21:8 (New International Version)

    8 He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not follow them.

    this is specifically talking about people claiming to be jesus himself and thus saying time is near. "claiming 'I am he'", these are qualification for false Jesus christs that come the two are not split up but a joint qualification that Jws do not qualify for because they have never said they are Jesus. I addressed someone trying to generalise this down to saying you are anointed is near enough by the following scripture

    2 Corinthians 1:21
    Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us,

    that reasoning would make the appostles here false prophets by claiming they were annointed

    Deuteronomy 18:19-22 (New International Version)

    19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

    21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

    this is a very general scripture but I have highlighted the flaws in applying it to witnesses because unless armageddon is a false prophecy in itself or Jesus coming is a false prophecy etc it doesn't apply.

    Revelation 1:2-3 (New International Version)

    2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

    we are comanded to preach these messages inspired utterances

    Acts 10:42
    He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.

    none of them say usng dates alone is prophecy it it is said to be not a good idea since god would only know the time.

    Your case is scripturally weak an involves splicing scriptures ignoring other indicators that are linked as qualifications.

    and this following scriptures shows no condemntion of looking for times on ACTUAL bible prophecy...

    Peter 1:10-11 (New International Version)

    10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

    they are not condemned for this, you have yet to address this scripture.

    John 21:22-23 (New International Version)

    22 Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"

    were Jesus's followers here condemned for thinkng Jesus made a prediction concerning one them not dyng until he returned? Nope they were just corrected.

    presumptiousnss on dates is not false prophetcy the sciptures on false propets are very clear as to what they do that is false and how to recognise them.

    Mark 13:22
    For false Christs and falseprophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible.

    Matthew 24:24
    For false Christs and falseprophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

  • Atlantis
    Atlantis

    A person can argue all they want to!

    and

    A person can debate all they want to!

    But the fact remains:

    ****************************************************

    Q. Back to the point now. A false prophesy was promulgated?

    A.I agree that.

    Q. It had to be accepted by Jehovah's Witnesses?

    A. That is correct.

    Q. If a member of Jehovah's Witnesses took the view himself that that prophesy was wrong and said so he would be disfellowshipped?

    A. Yes, if he said so and kept persisting in creating trouble, because if the whole organisation believes one thing, even though it be erroneous and somebody else starts on his own trying to put his ideas across then there is disunity and trouble, there cannot be harmony, there cannot be marching. When a change comes it should come from the proper source, the head of the organisation, the governing body, not from the bottom upwards, because everybody would have ideas, and the organisation would disintegrate and go in a thousand different directions. Our purpose is to have unity.

    When they admit to publishing "false prophecy," nothing else needs to be said. End of story!

    Cheers! Atlantis!-

  • chicken little
    chicken little

    I never understand the amount of time used on Reniaa. I predict that she will become an apostate in 2014. Ooops not long before that prophecy fails............

  • whatcanIsay
    whatcanIsay

    The JW call themeselves prophets in the Revelation It Grand Climax Is At Hand! Your think that Jesus Christ was Heavenly enthroned in 1914?

  • iknowall558
    iknowall558

    Reniaa --

    WT 1958 Oct 15 page 613

    "Journalists and scientists, clergymen and politicians alike express fear of a "nuclear armageddon". What does the Bible have to say about Armageddon and what can you do about it ?"

    "Sometime between April 15th and 23rd, 1957, Armageddon will sweep the world. Millions of persons will perish in it its flames and the land will be scorched," so PROPHESIED a certain Californian pastor, Mihran Ask, in Jan ,1957."

    "Such FALSE PROPHETS tend to put the subject of Armageddon in disrepute."

    You said - - -" Iknowall you continue to say putting DATES on Bible prophecy is prophecy in itself "

    The above WT ref. proves that this is what your leaders believe to be the case also. Pastor Mihran Ask put A DATE ON ARMAGEDDON........we all know Armageddon is a Bible prophecy. They said he made a PROPHECY by saying it would take place during 8 days in April 1957....you know ----- attaching a DATE to it.

    What did they call him for doing this?...............FALSE PROPHET !.......Why ! oh why ! oh why !..........Do they easily recognise this in others .....BUT NOT THEMSELVES ?

    How many times have they put a date on Armageddon ? Lets just pick one...1975 ! KM 3 / 1968 pg 4 "..there are only about NINETY MONTHS left before 6,000 years of man's existence on earth is completed...........The majority of people living today will probably be alive when ARMAGEDDON breaks out................

    What is the difference between what they said and what pastor Mihran Ask said ?.............Yet HE is a false prophet.......AND THEY ARE NOT! .. Eh ?

    Go and tell Jehovah to stop using "general" scriptures that obviously don't carry enough weight for you, eg. Deut 18, and go and tell your 'leaders to try and hide all their double speak within their magazines and books a bit better than what they're doing, because it's obviously making things difficult and awkward for you to try and defend their crap !

  • Olin Moyles Ghost
    Olin Moyles Ghost

    @iknowall: you've got to understand one thing. It's only false prophecy when someone else predicts a date for Armageddon. When the WT leadership does this, it's just "eagerness" and "zeal."

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