WANTED ! JW Apologist

by wobble 389 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

besty
passwordprotected original question:
does the true doctrine of the 'faithful and discreet' slave being appointed in 1919 and growing into a billion dollar publishing corporation stand up to "close examination of original translations"? Just curious. After-all, you need to accept that doctrine in order to survive Armageddon
Reniaa's answer <after initially defending the WTS's right to be $$$$> if I parse it correctly seems to indicate that she accepts the GB as her leaders but the judging of who can live or die is with Jehovah/Jesus.
So typical WTS doublespeak along the lines of we are not inspired but spirit-directed - a distinction without a difference designed to confuse and mislead, to appeal to authority and yet avoid the consequences of false prophesy.
You wanted a recent quote making clear that salvation and belief in WTS doctrine are inextricably linked:
Our coming to know "the truth" - the entire body of Christian teachings that has become part of the Bible - and adhering to it are essential for our salvation. - Watchtower December 15 2008, pg 28.
Of course you need to accept the premise that Jesus chose the WTS in 1919 - otherwise they have no basis for authority as leaders.
Do you accept this premise Renaiaa? Yes or no will be fine thanks - I know you are busy.
Just before you answer here's a quick summary of some of the WTS beliefs in 1919:
- The "Last Days" started in 1799 and the 1800’s were the worst time period of all history
- That Jesus had begun ruling in 1874
- Armageddon had already occurred in 1914
- That the end was going to come in 1925
- That blood was acceptable as food for Christians
- That Jesus should be prayed to and worshipped as well as Jehovah
- That the Great Crowd were a heavenly class
- That birthdays and Christmas were acceptable celebrations
- The cross was on the cover of the Watchtower
- Many teachings adapted from Freemasons, such as that pyramids and astrology supported 1914
- Strong Zionist support for a new nation of Israel in fulfilment of Bible prophecy
- That the Faithful and Discreet Slave was not the anointed, but rather Pastor Russell
- that the earthly resurrection would start in 1925
http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/5min.htm
Homerovah the Almighty

So Reniaa you would not admit then that the WTS. were unscrupulous and did not use devious marketing tactics to cull followers
toward them ? such as come join us and live in paradise or either die at Armageddon.
Keep in mind the free and open market revolving religion in America and how men have exploited this arrangement.
You mentioned in your previous post that Russell wasn't materialistic bound, how about the astute gentleman Rutherford that
followed right after him who grabbed the money and power from the organization and utilized it for his own benefit,
such as lavishly appointed homes , cars that only the ultra rich could afford, the hand tailored suits and all the booze he could guzzle.
Not to mention the woman that he comforted with that wasn't his wife, now that sounds like a true worshiper of God all
full of wholesomeness and integrity...........Right
All religions are a business once they're analyzed and seen how they're structured and mostly are developed out of fear and human ignorance.
You could easily start your own religion if you wanted to Reniaa, its all very easy.
BizzyBee

**** to be an apostate you have to be opposing the faith you are apostate too, no longer believing what it preachers, Isn't df-ing moot point in this case if the person doesn't believe then they have walked away in mind anyway?******
The WTS will track you down to determine if your beliefs about their supremacy has changed. Many apostates don't want to be disfellowshipped because they will lose contact with family who are still in the organization. But they have stopped believing in it. Just a few years ago there was a directive from the Society to search out such ones and find out where they stood, under threat of DF.
This happened to me many years ago. I had stopped going to meetings, withdrew my literature order, and resigned from the TMS and started going to college. I did not try to recruit anyone away from JWs. I did tell a very nice elder who inquired, that some of the teachings* in the literature bothered me and that I was uncomfortable taking it in FS. He fluffed it off and said I didn't have to go in service for awhile. (WTF?)
Eventually, I was sent a certified letter at my office that I was to meet with a JC or be DFd in absentia. I went and they wanted to know if I still believed that this was God's organization. I lied and said of course. I am a very honest person, but I was being hounded by liars, so I protected myself. I was never DFd.
*the teachings, from the Babylon book, portrayed the Bible Students as fulfilling biblical prophesies in Revelation. Trumpet blasts = conventions in Cedar Point, Ohio or some such nonsense. Couldn't swallow it. No matter how hard I tried I gagged it back up.
mrsjones5

When a religion teaches absolute truth, it makes sense anyone not believing this truth is worshipping falsehood. Anyone not worshipping Jehovah is worshipping Satan, and so deserves destruction. If truth is easy to understand and God attracts his sheep, there is no excuse not to follow it. The flaw in this reasoning is that no Organization teaches absolute truth. Jehovah's Witnesses certainly do not teach it. In its short 130 year history the Watchtower Society has changed its teachings so substantially that they have no right to claim a unique ability to understand truth. It is illogical to state God gave Russell the many wrong teachings that the Watchtower later had to reject.
In Bible times, God indicated whom he was using through powerful signs. He spoke directly to Abraham and provided powerful miracles through Moses. First century Christians witnessed God personally speaking in approval of his son and watched Jesus heal the sick and raise the dead. The apostles and other Christians continued to display such powerful works. Jehovah's Witnesses have never produced a powerful sign of any kind to assist identify their Organization as approved today.
The problem with saying salvation is dependant on belonging to a single, small organization is reality proves that the Watchtower is not accessible to a large portion of the world. Much of the world does not even have access to the Bible.
http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/salvation.htm
oompa
Reniaa: some things I am troubled over like shunning but they keep strictly to his words even if some may say too strictly.
ahhhh Reniaa.....that is EXACTLY can lead to one becoming an apostate!!
SHAME ON YOU!....see if you are troubled over something you are supposed to pray about it and do research on your own. Now if you do the research on it and then are REALLY troubled over it because know for a fact it is something that goes FAR what is written in the Bible, what do you do? Well a good dub will just "hide his lamp under the basket" and keep his mouth shut. But lets say in his oh so foolish thinking he decides to inform or "get help" from an elder....oh crap!
now you have really done it....because if you show him your research, and have brought an outright FALSEHOOD being taught by the imaginary FDS CLASS...(ya that class thing is a good example of going beyond what is clearly written....and how the hey did first century christions not know THEY were this FDS CLASS?....hell they were filled with holy spirit who BTW....was the HELPER Jesus said he would send....so since they already had this HELPER....why the hell would they need another HELPER/SLAVE???).....sorry for the sidebar rant....ok...so you get the info of your "troublings" to the elder and you decide you know for a fact the teaching is an obviously lie (like them telling us they have restored the name Jehovah 237 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures...when that is a TOTAL LIE!!!.....there is zero evidence in the would that it was ever there!...so how can you restore something that was never there!!!!ARRRRGGGHHH!!!!).....so if you stick to your guns and show others and tell them you do not believe this thing that troubles you....what happens??......you are dfd plain and simple.
I did a thread awhile back about how so many witnesses are just like us apostates and dont even know it....Example #1...my own mom and wife of my elder/dad does NOT shun my dfd son...why?....she disagrees with the WT teaching that approves of and even encourages child baptisim...bless her heart and she is right too...WT knows that in the first century only ADULTS were baptised
how so many got kicked out or left....you are on a dangerous path....you are "troubled over" something
#2. many dubs, and maybe you feel like this...."Jehovah/Jesus will read hearts at Armageddon and this will be the determining factor as to who will survive...he is a loving God"....and then you come up with this ridiculous quote from the WT below....but hell...you prob have not noticed that they major in "crafty writing".....that quote is only about the Resurrection hope and not SURVIVING ARMAGEDDON....my own dad and my best friend do not believe ONLY JW's will survive Armageddon....but if they or my mom presses these things they DISSAGREE on with the FDS CLASS....and persisted in it...they would be df'd as apostates....really....i feel there should be HARMONY of belief...but not this INSANE TOTAL HARMONY like the NAZI's insisted on!!!.....really it is as if God gave all man FREE WILL....EXCEPT FOR JW's!!!!!!....ya you can exercise it...but only in your mind....if you dissagree on ANYTHING publicly and do not stop....you will be dfd.....even if you spout off that men should be allowed privileges if they wear a beard...or sisters should be able to wear pantsuits on stage or in service.....ya...just keep your mouth shut..
Reniaa: Do I believe this statement, hmmm i'm not sure because break it down and this is a definite wt statement you say they make so do they specifically say you have to believe this particular statement to be saved? can you provide resent documentary proof of this please, I haven't seen anything this specific in wt's. if you go on their site it makes this statement.
Do they believe that they are the only ones who will be saved?
No. Millions that have lived in centuries past and who were not Jehovah's Witnesses will come back in a resurrection and have an opportunity for life. Many now living may yet take a stand for truth and righteousness before the "great tribulation," and they will gain salvation. Moreover, Jesus said that we should not be judging one another. We look at the outward appearance; God looks at the heart. He sees accurately and judges mercifully. He has committed judgment into Jesus' hands, not ours.—Matthew 7:1-5; 24:21; 25:31.
The ACTUAL TEACHING on who survive Armageddon is this....and i found 20 places that say it"
The Watchtower 1993 October 1 p.19 went as far as to state that there are billions in line for destruction.
"There are billions of people who do not know Jehovah. Many of them in ignorance practice things that God's Word shows to be wicked. If they persist in this course, they will be among those who perish during the great tribulation.""But if we were to draw away from Jehovah’s organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy." Watchtower 1993 Sept. 15 p.22

"Only Christian witnesses of Jehovah who successfully pass this test will survive and come forth like fire-refined gold for God's use in his precious new order". Watchtower 1985 Mar. 1 p.14
"But if we were to draw away from Jehovah’s organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy." Watchtower 1993 Sept. 15 p.22
There is another fave of mine to even scare the hell out of JW's...it says that not ALL JW's will survive...but only "those actively proclaiming the good news as part of Gods earthly orginaztion"....so god will kill slacker jws too!!!...lmao
you stated earlier: Do I think they are have Gods blessing at this time?.....please tell us what you base this belief on, and i would like to know if you do not have a WT-CD?....at least read the JWFACTS part on salvation....i hate to say it, but you said so many more things here i wanted to cut and share the REAL JW positions on, but i am not going to....you seem to either be very lazy as to your research, or just want to argure what you think JW's teach when you dont really know.............
i would be interested in your feedback...and if you need me too...i will go back and find the letter to my buddy about how ONLY ACTIVE JWS SURVIVE ARMAGEDDON.....or you can pm me and i will e-mail it to you or pm it to you....study girl...study............oompa
oh and another doctrine unique to jw's i disagree with..."the only thing jehovah ever created was jesus....then he just decided to never do ANYTHING else on his own????.....just watch jesus do everthing???....man that sounds boring......
purplesofa

but does that mean I should drop them and form my own personal faith
I think you are forming your own peronsal faith. The JW religion is all or nothing, I think you have cherry picked what fits for you and you are tormented with what does not.
You should have been a rock star.
purps
BizzyBee

I can just envision this scenario at Armageddon:
Jehovah rounding up all the sinners (non-Witnesses) for gruesome, fiery destruction and Renaii is caught in the net.
"Wait! I'm still trying to make up my mind!"
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Is there a Guinness World record for fence-sitting? Eleven years might take it.
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Renaii, I hope you don't think this mean-spirited. I know you are conflicted and it must be torture. You say there is a personal reason that you may never return to the dubs. Whatever it is, I know it is very real for you and you are surely caught in a dilemma and I wouldn't wish it on you or anyone.
reniaa

eek gloves off time, my forte is bible not men, so going over witnesses leader history is just not my bag, it's to easy to focus on the imperfections of men, I know a cold reading of my life would paint a very different picture of who I actually am, my mistakes would show up so much more than my achievements. WE as humans prefer to focus the negative hense why people like to sit in front of their TV's and watch reality TV programs of people being horrible to each other.
lol you forget I believe in Jehovah guys and Jesus, I can go and be part of what I think is the nearest thing to bible truth with doubts on certain things in my heart knowing it's Jesus that will judge me for salvation not the gb or fds, they have a job to do and they do it for us not the other way round. but they say we must do these things and I will wait on Jehovah because
Romans 14:19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves.
it's talking on food but since my doubts are not helpful or productive since I seek not to destroy but upbuild what I consider is the faith with the nearest definition to bible truths on Jehovah, i'll keep my peace on it just between me and God, lol and a little on this forum :)
mrsjones5

You're confusing God with the bOrg again Reniaa
OUTLAW

Reniaa..You totally miss the point of being a Jehovah`s Witness..Jehovah`s Witness`s believe what the WBT$ say`s,the bible says..That can change from day to day................."it's Jesus that will judge me for salvation not the gb or fds..".........Wrong again!!....If your not an active JW in good standing with the WBT$,when armageddon comes..Your Dead!!..LOL!!.......You are a very confused person when it comes to the Belief`s of Jehovah`s Witness`s............You really need to take instruction,rather than give it.............You have no idea what your talking about..And..You say it with such Authority!!..LOL!!................................
...OUTLAW

WANTED ! JW Apologist

Do they believe that they are the only ones who will be saved?

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