The abuse thread?
I noticed. I didn't even get a PM.
BTS
Born Gay?
by inrainbows 206 Replies latest members adult
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Witness 007
I think people are born gay and there is nothing the can do about it.
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BurnTheShips
I think people are born gay and there is nothing the can do about it.
What about people that claim they have changed their sexual orientation? Delusions? Lies? BTS
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jstalin
What about people that claim they have changed their sexual orientation? Delusions? Lies?
Both.
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BurnTheShips
Both.
Evidence please?
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Anti-Christ
What about people that claim they have changed their sexual orientation? Delusions? Lies?
I can't speak for other people but maybe some are bi-sexual and/or are confused because of their upbringing and because of social pressure. We are all individuals and I think from one person to the other the journey to self discovery can be very different.
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Junction-Guy
I second that uprbinging comment.
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jstalin
Evidence please?
Evidence that they can, please. I think the overwhelming evidence is on my side. History is replete of extremely cruel methods of attempting to "convert" gays to straight, including shock therapy, institutionalization, social pressure, even threats and actual murder. Yet... gosh, all those folks have "chosen" to be gay. Give me a break.
I hate to be a cut and paster, but here we go from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy#Studies_on_malleability_of_homosexuality
Studies on malleability of homosexuality
The APA stated: "In the last four decades, 'reparative' therapists have not produced any rigorous scientific research to substantiate their claims of cure." It has called for more scientific research to determine the risks and benefits involved, and until such research is available, recommended that "ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change individuals' sexual orientation." [8] However, there are anecdotal evidence of effectiveness. Studies from the 1950s–1980s generally reported rates of positive outcomes at about 30%, with more recent survey research generally consistent with the extant data. [7] In a survey of 882 people who were undergoing therapy, attending ex-gay groups or ex-gay conferences, 22. 9% reported they had not undergone any changes, 42.7% reported some changes, and 34.3% reported much change in sexual orientation. As a group, they reported large reductions in homosexual thoughts and fantasies and improvements in their psychological, interpersonal, and spiritual well-being. [110]
A 2002 peer-reviewed study found that 88% of participants failed to achieve a sustained change in their sexual behavior and 3% reported changing their orientation to heterosexual. The remainder reported either losing all sexual drive or attempting to remain celibate, with no change in attraction. Some of the participants who failed felt a sense of shame and had gone through conversion therapy programs for many years. Others who failed believed that therapy was worthwhile and valuable. Of the 8 respondents (out of a sample of 202) who reported a change in sexual orientation, 7 worked as ex-gay counselors or group leaders. [45]
In 2001, Dr. Robert Spitzer, who was involved in the APA's declassification of homosexuality as a mental disorder, presented a paper on conversion therapy at the APA annual convention. He reported that 66% of the men and 44% of the women he sampled had achieved "good heterosexual functioning" through interventions. [134] This paper was widely reported by proponents of conversion therapy as evidence of success of the therapy.
The APA immediately issued an official disavowal of the paper, noting that it had not been peer-reviewed and stating that "There is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of reparative therapy as a treatment to change one's sexual orientation." [135] Two years later, Spitzer published the paper in the Archives of Sexual Behavior. The publication decision sparked controversy and one sponsoring member resigned in protest. The paper has been criticized on various grounds, including using non-random sampling and poor criteria for "success". Critics argue that it relied upon samples selected by conversion therapists themselves (86 participants were handpicked by ex-gay organizations), that proper random samplings were not used, that small samplings were used, that the subjects appeared to be ex-gay advocates who may have been biased in favor of conversion therapies, that 60% of the subjects had previously reported being bisexual, and that no follow-up study had been carried out to ascertain long-term conversion. [136] [135]
Spitzer himself played down the results of his own paper; upon being asked about the 200 patient sample after 16 months, and the percentage of people who might succeed, Spitzer said that it took almost a year and a half to only find 200 willing individuals, and therefore, the number of gay people who could successfully become heterosexual was likely to be "pretty low". He also conceded that the study's participants were "unusually religious." [135]
Likewise, there are non-peer-reviewed studies that show evidence of change, conducted either by NARTH or other professional therapists. For example, many groups point to "Ex-Gays? A Longitudinal Study of Religiously Mediated Change in Sexual Orientation", a book published by researchers Stanton Jones and Mark Yarhouse. [137] The study showed that out of a sample size of 98 people who sought a change in their sexual orientation, 15% reported a change in orientation over a three year period. [138] The American Psychological Association is currently looking into the results of this study. [139]
[edit] Opposition to evidence
Major medical organizations and others do not accept the anecdotal evidence offered by conversion therapists and ex-gay groups for reasons including: [135] [140]
- results are not published in peer-reviewed journals, but tend to be released to the mass media and the Internet (see Science by press conference); [135]
- random samples of subjects are not used and results are reliant upon the subjects' own self-reported outcomes or on the therapist's own evaluations which may be subject to social desirability bias; [42]
- evidence is gathered over short periods of time and there is little follow-up data to determine whether it was effective over the long-term; [71]
- the evidence does not demonstrate a change in sexual orientation, but merely a reduction in same-sex behavior; [71]
- the evidence does not take into consideration that subjects may be bisexual and may have simply been convinced to restrict their sexual activity to the opposite sex; [71]
- conversion therapists falsely assume that homosexuality is a mental disorder; [5]
- conversion therapists' research focuses on gay men almost exclusively and rarely includes lesbians. [71]
With respect to the last point, one commentator argues that the reason for the focus on gay men is more political than medical. He argues that conservative and rigidly defined gender roles are the core value system used by conversion therapists, and that male sexuality, with its emphasis on masculine and patriarchal hierarchies, is seen as more important and valuable than female sexuality. [141]
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BurnTheShips
Evidence that they can, please. I think the overwhelming evidence is on my side
Talk to these people about their personal experiences, what does the APA have to say about that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex-gay#Ex-gay_people
Ex-gay people
- Alan Chambers is the president of Exodus International. He shares his story at several ex-gay events and has written several books. He is politically active, and promotes legislation against same-sex marriage. [13]
- Andrew Comiskey is the founder and leader of Desert Stream Ministries. [14] Founded in 1980, Desert Stream Ministries states that its mission is to "equip the body of Christ to minister healing to the sexually and relationally broken through healing groups and leadership training for the local church." [15] Mr. Comiskey has authored several books, including Pursuing Sexual Wholeness: How Jesus Heals the Homosexual and The Kingdom of God and the Homosexual. [16]
- Alan Medinger[ [17] is a former director of Exodus International, [18] and is the Founder and Executive Director Emeritus [19] of Regeneration Ministies, a Christian organization that assists men and women dealing with sexual issues such as pornography and homosexuality. [20] Mr. Medinger is the author of Growth Into Manhood. [21]
- Stephen Bennett [22] is the President, Founder, and Executive Director of Stephen Bennett Ministries, Inc., an international nonprofit Christian organization that speaks out against homosexuality, assists persons seeking "freedom from homosexuality," and provides resources for parents of homosexually-involved sons and daughters. [23] Mr. Bennett is also a Christian songwriter and recording artist. [24] He has been married since 1993 and he and his wife have two children. [25]
- Michael Glatze [26] is a former gay rights activist and former publisher of Young Gay America YGA Magazine. [27] Glatze recently revealed that he had eschewed his gay identity, and he has become an outspoken critic of homosexuality. [28]
- Richard Cohen is the former president of Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays and Gays and was the subject of an infamous interview by Jason Jones on the March 19, 2007 episode of The Daily Show. After this appearance, NARTH and Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays and Gays removed all references to Cohen from their website [29] and Exodus International issued a position statement distancing themselves from him. [30]
- Charlene Cothran was the editor of Venus, a magazine for African-Americanlesbians. Following a Christianconversion in 2006, she changed the editorial policy of the magazine to support the ex-gay movement. [31] [32]
- Dennis Jernigan is a singer-songwriter of contemporary Christian music. He describes his experience of "deliverance from homosexuality" during his concerts. [33]
- Mike Haley, Youth and Gender Analyst for Focus on the Family, [34] was living as a gay man for 12 years, and at one point was arrested for gay prostitution. He left "gayhood" when he was 28. [35] After what he calls a long and painful struggle, he made a switch to heterosexuality. Today, he's married with three children. [36]
- Randy Thomas, Executive Vice President of Exodus International, [37] was in gay relationships since he was a teenager, but stopped when he found Christianity in his mid-20s. [38] He now says "I am 15 years on the other side of identifying as gay. I have had a sexual orientation shift, and I'm not gay." [39]
- Melissa Fryrear, Gender Issues Analyst in Focus on the Family’s Legislative and Cultural Affairs Department, [40] lived as a lesbian for ten years before her Christian conversion and subsequent years of therapy, which she says made her life "fuller and happier." [41] She now says "I'm changed. I'm a heterosexual woman now. I'm not sexually attracted to women." [42]
- Joe Dallas [43] is the Program Director of Genesis Counseling, and received the King Josiah award at the 2006 Freedom Conference. He has written six books on human sexuality and his website offers resources for those with same-sex attractions. [44]
- Sy Rogers was selected as one of '50 Up & Coming Evangelical Leaders Under 40' by Christianity Today. He has served for over two decades in ministry as a pastoral care specialist regarding sexuality. He has spoken at ex-gay conferences throughout the world.
- Rev. David Foster is highly involved in helping people of color trying to leave homosexuality. He argues those who try to relate sexual orientation to race, stating "I'm just as black as the day I was born, but I'm no longer homosexual. You can't deny that.” [45]
- David Matheson admitted to himself that he was attracted to men when he was 22 and married. After seven years of therapy, he says that he has changed his sexual orientation. [46] He has since become a licensed professional counselor and has made his clinical focus to be "helping men who want to diminish unwanted homosexuality and feel whole as men." [47] He is the clinical director of the Center for Gender Wholeness, co-creator of the Journey into Manhood weekend, and a director of People Can Change. [48] He has written the Evergreen Workbook for Men, Four Principles of Growth [49] , and has made several media appearances talking about overcoming homosexual attractions. He does not say he is completely straight, but "straight enough". [50]
- Rich Wyler is the founder and executive director of People Can Change and co-creator and leader of Journey into Manhood. He established Higher Path Life Coaching and began coaching professionally in 2005. [51] He leads telephone-based coaching group called "A Wife's Journey: Caring for Yourself and Your Family When Your Husband Struggles With Homosexuality or Addiction." [52]
BTS
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jstalin
Talk to these people about their personal experiences, what does the APA have to say about that?
Lol.... are you kidding me? They all run or are part of religious organizations that have a vested interest in "proving" that homosexuality cannot possibly be innate, because if that were so, "god' screwed up and they would have a lot of explaining to do.
Show me one peer-reviewed study that purports to show that gay people can truly change their orientation. Not just behavior, but orientation. You can't. You can only point to abusive whack jobs like Cohen. The ex-gay movement has a very serious credibility problem.