A STUNNINGLY simple question about JOHN 3:16 "For God so Loved the world."

by Terry 384 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Legitimate reasons for showing leniency is a willingness on the part of an accused person to make restitution, admit guilt, enter a program of rehabilitation

    Do you know how many people are pardoned each year that don't fit any of your criteria? At the end of most President's term, they pardon sometimes dozens of people that don't fit your criteria or reasons.

    So, according to your answer, you really don't know why a compassionate judge would show compassion do you? You can only guess. It could be for all of the reasons that you guess at, or maybe just one, or maybe none of them. You actually have no idea do you?

    Your rope-a-dope with a hypothetical judge is a deflection because you can't answer my Topic question.

    Presidential pardons (any pardons, for that matter) are at the discretion of the one granting the pardon irrespective of the morality, judgement or justice involved. This is what makes, for example, President Clinton's pardons disgusting and brings shame upon his ethics.

    If you are building some sort of jerry-built analogy with God here, you are forgetting that God is God ONLY by demonstration of superlative demonstration of Godliness through actions of a superlative and transcendant nature!

    What makes God godly is that He is not prone to moral failure and is demonstrably above breaking his own standards for "self-betterment" since He cannot be greater than what He is.

    Meaning? Meaning John 3:16 is contrary to perfection on God's part because mercy which is UNmerited is UNWORTHY mercy. Kindness which is UNdeserved is UNWORTHY kindness.

    Setting criminals loose does not demonstrate goodness. It demonstrates leniency at the expense of the crimes they will go on to commit all over again.

    How many countless "forgiven" humans have gone on to wreak havoc upon the world secure in the smug confidence God has "saved" them??

    The wars, for example, Christendom has engaged in with God on their side stems from the feeling of superiorty of a perceived blessing of them as the "good guys." How did they become the "good guys?" These self-important jerks got "saved" without deserving it!!!

    UNMERITED anything is UNDESERVED for a reason: it is inequitable and unjust, leading to countless harms in the name of God.

  • Terry

    God's love for His human creation caused Him to reach out for us again and again, finally culminating in the the greatest act in the universe - allowing His dearly Beloved to die instead of us.


    Gods love for His human creation based on WHAT?

    Have you not read any of these posts?

    What basis does God have for cursing, punishing, killing and condemning mankind all through history? Or, do you deny God had any reason for these judgements?

    If God had and has a basis for cursing, punishing, killing and condemning mankind all through history--I ask the simply question:

    On what basis did all that change so as to engender LOVE? By what sane standard does the righteous and perfect doer of good end up punished, tortured, betrayed and dead while the doer of evil goes scot free with God's approval?

    WHAT BASIS for LOVE did God suddenly have that had only caused him to blaze in anger before??

    Can you understand my question?

  • Perry
    Colossians emphasises the need for christians to clothe themselves in 'tender mercies, kindness,humility, a heart of compassion, gentleness and patience'


    I noticed that ignorance was missing from the list. And, that is what this thread is all about..... Terry's fostering confusion and ignorance as an atheist troll. A troll is internationally recognized as on of the lowest forms of life on the internet. Terry is not in the least bit interested in anything other than a natural life. He lives as a parasite on the Christian faith. It doesn't bother him in the least that his thread after thread after thread attacking the fundamentals of Christianity would offend some 2 billion people on this planet. (This is different than just questioning... which Terry long ago quit doing)

    Personally, I find these kinds of threads relaxing. They give me a nice diversion to some of life's mundane repetitiveness. As I have tried to demonstrate here, the Christian logic is far, far superior than the empty, vain, high-sounding reasonings of the skeptics. They can be clearly shown to not have any idea what they believe. To the question, "Why does a man who loves fishing, go fishing? ; I quote one answer: it depends on a lot of interactive variables. Hence, I can't answer your question.

    Here's what I believe:

    I believe that two thousand years ago "God manifest in the flesh" (1 Tim. 3: 16 KJV) walked the earth in the person of Jesus Christ. I believe that the evil and sin we observe in ourselves and in the world is good evidence that our race is at odds with the Creator and it's not evidence for his non-existence, or indifference. I believe we are his enemy as soon as we be born.

    I believe that "God manifest in flesh" suffered a Roman scouraging and death by crucifixion up on Calvary Hill. I believe he bled for me personally, taking my just punishment that I deserve, in me stead, so that justice is served up in full measure. I believe he then went to hell for three days and suffered for me there, which is where most mankind is surely headed, to await judgment day.

    I believe that on the third day, he was raised up in the flesh, and thus both fulfilled his end of the Blood Covenant that he made with me as well as furnished an absolute, unbreakable guarantee.

    I believe that my turn will be coming up in just a few short years as I fulfill my end of the bargain - Heb 9: 27 - And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    I believe that I started out in this life like one of those monkeys in asia with the top of his skull removed for everyone to feast on. I believe that the WT has made a science out of eating people's brains and that it is a belief system hatched in hell. I believe that there are many others on this strange and wonderful world that would love to have my brains for dinner as well, just for their own perverse pleasure.

    I believe that if a man who loves fishing, goes fishing; he does so because he loves it.

    I believe that if a compassionate judge shows mercy, he does so because he's a compassionate judge; as opposed to a "hangin' judge' who is known for his severity.

    These are questions all 3rd graders can answer but atheist trolls cannot .

    And I believe this:

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

  • Terry

    I'm curious why you avoid my other question?

    Why does a man who loves fishing, go fishing?

    I did awhile back. I'm curious as to why you didn't read it. I'm curious as to why you are off topic. I'm curious as to why you are deflecting when this should be the easiest topic of all for you to ace.

    Very curious, indeed!

    Could it be you simply accept the gift of God's grace without a clue as to how it is even possible?

    May I suggest to you it might be worth your while to re-examine the basis for your confidence when it may be illusory, man-made fiction which will leave you at the end of your life empty-handed?

    If you really had an answer you'd have offered it by now.

    Instead, we have to watch the stupefying spectacle of tap-dancing.

    You grabbed the UNdeserved kindness and the UNmerited favor the way a rube at a carnival grabs the chance to lose his life's savings on 3 card Monte.

    What made Perry so lovable to God that a much better person (Jesus) got beaten up, tortured and killed in your place? How can you be happy about that?

  • hillary_step


    What made Perry so lovable to God that a much better person (Jesus) got beaten up, tortured and killed in your place? How can you be happy about that?

    ...and what of the 'many called but few chosen' fiasco.

    Why has Perry been called and chosen and others not? Because he is more intelligent than most? Obviously not. Because he has a bigger heart than others. Definately not. Because he is more deluded than most. Ahh....that argument might have legs.


  • snowbird

    I've read all of the posts, thank you for asking, Terry.

    You're not the only one capable of semantics gymnastics!

    Love doesn't have to be based on anything. It simply IS.

    In the Garden of Eden, Who went in search of whom?

    LOVE,GRACE,TRUTH!!! sought out the ones who had condemned themselves.

    How's that for a stunningly simple answer?


  • Terry

    I believe that if a man who loves fishing, goes fishing; he does so because he loves it.

    I believe that if a compassionate judge shows mercy, he does so because he's a compassionate judge; as opposed to a "hangin' judge' who is known for his severity.

    I'm glad you said this. It makes it easier to talk to you. Sit down, Perry. Brace yourself, you're about to have a shock.

    First Lesson:


    What is a Tautology?

    I'd cut and past the definition here in a little box, but, I'd like for you to go look it up by doing a search. That way, when you find out you'll have earned the information which will follow.

    I'll wait.......(dum tee dum dum dum)

    Okay? Got it?

    Now, let's proceed.

    Since your thinking is largely an accumulation of tautologies instead of knowledge your conclusions aren't really valid.

    You have a brain. Using the brain you have makes you a person instead of a drone spouting tautologies.

    The way a person becomes an individual is by not letting anything into their core beliefs that hasn't passed the skeptical sniff test.

    You, Perry, unfortunately have accumulated a storehouse of fish smell!

    You didn't learn to vet your incoming core beliefs by exposing them to simple questions of "How?" "Why?" "What for?"

    You just took the buckets of chum and slopped them into your brainpan and slammed the door shut.

    When somebody asks you a question it isn't really an answer to list tautolgies. No, that is unresponsive. It is like a prisoner of war replying with name, rank and serial number.

    Your doctrinal tautologies are like that. They are unresponsive.

    Either God is the source of logic (THE LOGOS) or He plays deuces wild.

    I'd have more respect for your position if you came out and said that.

    "God can do anything He wants for any reason anytime He feels like it and it doesn't have to be consistent."

    That would make tautology as good as knowledge and fact, you see.

    The Muslims believe Allah to be that sort of God. Allah is mysteriously unmotivated by reasons and thus fearfully unpredictable.

    Is your God Allah?

    I don't think so. I think you'd be offended to be accused of serving or worshipping a God of deuces wild and whim.

    But, Perry---that is what is happening here.

    Ask yourself what kind of God produces the illogical doctrines you've been spouting and you might end up realizing you serve Allah!

    Happy Ramadan.

  • Terry

    Love doesn't have to be based on anything. It simply IS.

    In the Garden of Eden, Who went in search of whom?

    LOVE,GRACE,TRUTH!!! sought out the ones who had condemned themselves.

    How's that for a stunningly simple answer?


    Sylvia, I'm not trying to offend you. This is nothing personal. It is just a discussion. Don't take my words to be directed at you as though I find you lacking in some way. Far from it.

    I'm challenging what you say--apart from who you are.


    Now, as to your above response.

    You do realize you are asserting something here. You are making a definitive statement and saying, in effect, "My statement is based on nothing!"

    I find that extraordinary. Why don't you?

    Love has no basis? Love has no object? Love has no reasons?

    Wouldn't that mean Love has no merit either?

    When you say "It simply is." Simply is what? An empty statement with nothing behind it?

    You see the problem here?

    Would you accept a paycheck without money to back it up? Your employer could say to you, "But, I gave you your paycheck!" And you'd reply, "But, I can't spend it--there is nothing to back it up!!" And your employer would reply with a huge smile, "Your paycheck doesn't need a basis in cash---it simply is!"

    See how uncomfortable and useless this would be?

    For anything to exist at all it has to be something. That something must possess an identity. Identity comes from the actuality of what that something is made of apart from what it isn't made of. Otherwise, everything is everything and everything can also be nothing!

    It all comes apart unravelling quickly if you don't make things accountable to proof, evidence, definition and substantial demonstration of existence. That is what information is all about, connecting what is with reports of it in detail.

    Otherwise, we are all walking around writing checks to each other on credit without a cent in the bank to back it all up.

    You simply must understand that LOVE is from what is valued. Hate is from what has no value. Love is an involuntary emotional response to encountering our strongest values. Hate is an involuntary emotional response to seeing what we most value threatened, harmed or destroyed.

    Nothing simply IS apart from value.


    You might want to review Perry's use of Tautology and ask yourself if you really want to go fishing in his boat!

  • fifi40


    Whilst experience has taught me that Terry is more than capable of defending himself I cannot personally recognise the person you describe him as.

    Firstly he has never claimed to be an atheist but has rather described himself as an agnostic. He was raised by god fearing adults who installed a respect of the divine in him and later became involved wholeheartedly in the JW religion to the point where he was prepared to serve time in jail for his conviction. Now he works in the religious section of a book store and I would think has digested more books on various religious thoughts than the rest of us put together. All of this information you can obtain by reading his posts and threads.

    Whilst I am not always a fan of the style in which Terry is capable of attacking a subject, I do see that he is trying to cause people to think and to question for themselves. Having been duped himself at one point I think he is almost passively angry at sytems which control people's thinking and enthrall their minds with what he considers to be junk. I dont believe he attacks individuals but rather the way in which they allow their minds to be controlled. He doesnt want wishy washy answers; he wants meaty answers that can satisfy his question. He wants the real thing.

    Truth be known, if you asked Terry I bet he would love to believe in a God whose plan is for mankind to be redeemed and to live happily and peacefully. Its just that the evidence he see's does not support this theory. And yet he asks those of you who do believe to answer his doubts, his questions with sincerity, evidence and truth. If he can run rings around you and rip apart your answers then maybe it is you who should be questioning your own belief system.

    Either way describing him as a 'atheist troll' or 'as being from his father the devil' does little to find a common ground upon which to draw any conclusion, and does not shower you in the soft glow of compassion and love one would expect from a follower of Jesus Christ.

  • Terry

    Thank you, FiFi.

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