I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God! (page 27)

lovelylil

Terry actually made some good points about trying to "prove" the trinity doctrine as we see it.

If it was difficult for those closer to the time of Christ to settle this matter, it will be nearly impossible for us 2,000+ years later to settle it.

Anyone can read a text and say it "proves" thier point but many scriptures are in fact ambiguous and cannot be fully understood at this time. Even the Apostle Paul said he saw things "thru a hazy mirror", and looked to the time when "that which is perfect comes", in order for the entire church to grow up together in accurate knowlege. Many believe "that which is perfect" refers to Christ and his 2nd coming.

Also, as Christians we know that accepting Jesus as our Lord is more important than believing in the trinity. Lilly

fjtoth

Lilly,

What you seem to be saying is, "Put the Bible aside. It's useless for settling questions about God. Even Christians in early centuries disagreed about some of its teachings. So just forget about the Bible, and everything will turn out all right."

Perhaps that is how you genuinely feel, but I tend to doubt it's going to bring good results into your life. There is a God. He had the Bible written so that we might get to know him. To say that the Bible won't do that for us is to say God is a liar.

The Bible tells us that every bit of it is inspired. It also foretold that scoffers would come along and ridicule what it teaches. But my experience, and the experience of millions of others, is that the Bible "is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16, 17)

You wrote:

Also, as Christians we know that accepting Jesus as our Lord is more important than believing in the trinity

Tell me, how can anyone accept Jesus as Lord if he or she ignores what Jesus said and what others wrote about him in the Scriptures?

fjtoth

Burn,

Is that so hard to understand?

I can understand the Scriptures, and I can understand why you are denying what they say. Many people resist accepting views that oppose their own.

You say you are familiar with the Biblical law of agency, yet you don't accept it. Instead, you say God alone is to be worshipped. That is what you say regardless of the fact that God allows worship of those who represent him as his agents.

For example, the captain of the host of the Lord was reverentially worshipped. (Joshua 5:14) There are plenty of examples in the Old Testament of angels being addressed worshipfully as God though they were not God but were his agents. Additionally, Jesus predicted that the day is coming when his followers, who are certainly not God, will be "worshipped." (Revelation 3:9)

You keep saying that I don't understand the Trinity. It so happens that I have the same view of you. For example, other Trinitarians speak of the Divine Three, and you seem to feel the expression is inappropriate. Who of you Trinitarians really grasp this strange teaching you want the rest of us to swallow hook, line and sinker? I've spoken with and studied with Trinitarians and unitarians for 60 years. I think in all that time I must have picked up something of a fairly good idea what all those persons, clergy and laity, believe about the God they worship. By the way, in all those 60 years I've never met a Bible-believing unitarian who switched to accepting the Trinity doctrine, but I have met several Trinitarians who finally realized that the teaching has no merit at all when put to the test with Bible in hand.

fjtoth

lovelylil

fjtoth,

I am not in any way putting the bible aside. And just to let you know, I believe in the Divinity of Christ. But the actual teaching on the trinity did not come until much later. I think exactly what God's Holy Spirit is, is one of those mysteries that we will not fully understand.

You have your view of what the Trinity is, and I may have mine. We may both read the same bible texts but understand them differently. Where does the Bible say we MUST accept this teaching? Our salvation depends on believing in Christ as Lord. If I am putting the Bible aside, what about Paul who said he had a "hazy" understanding of some things.

My point was not to get hung up on this one teaching. We can agree to disagree. But ultimately, we must be convinced in our own minds what we accept. Look how this teaching divided the church thus far. I think we need to let it go. Peace, Lilly

fjtoth

Lilly,

Thanks for your thoughts. But I have to disagree with the spirit you convey. The Bible says plenty about the Holy Spirit, and there's no excuse for a person who reads the Bible not to understand what the Spirit is all about. It's a cop-out, pure and simple, to say it's a mystery that we can't fully understand.

Instead of your view or mine on the Trinity, as devout truthseekers we ought to be diligently searching for the truth about God as he revealed it in the Bible. It is his mind on matters that counts, not yours or mine. I still think you view the Bible as less important than one's own inner feelings. What good are our feelings if they are no different from others who never looked into the Bible but who depend upon what others tell them?

As for whether or not we MUST accept some things about God and Christ, there are warnings about false teachers and false Christs who can carry us off as their spiritual prey if we are defenseless. This isn't a matter of being "hung up on this one teaching." It's an effort to uncover and lay bare the truth about God and Christ. To some people the truth is insignificant. All they want is peace and quiet such as can only be found in utopia or la-la land. Such persons don't have to come to this or similar threads. If that's all they want in life, I don't condemn them. But I pray for them that they might awaken to the fact that our lives are very short and that they just might miss out on the glories that are to come by failing to get in through "the narrow door." (Matthew 7:13, 14; Luke 13:24)

To "agree to disagree" on such an important issue, in my view, is to renounce Christ. It is a failure to grasp the insights and spirit of Paul who wrote: "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!" (Romans 11:33) 'Seek and ye shall find!' 'Keep on asking, knocking and seeking, and it will be opened unto you.'

fjtoth

lovelylil

fjtoth,

Can you show me scripturally where it says I must agree with your view of the Holy Spirit or Trinity? Lilly

fjtoth

Lilly,

To be honest, I don't understand your question. Would you mind showing me where I said you must agree with my view of the Holy Spirit and the Trinity?

I really doubt I wrote such a thing. What I did say is that we must agree with God. His teachings are very clear if we're able to set aside foolish teachings such as the Trinity, etc., that are not found anywhere in the Bible.

fjtoth

lovelylil

I believe in the Holy Spirit, I just do not believe it is a "person" in the same as Jehovah and Jesus. So I am not a true trinitarian. Maybe if you go back and read my posts on this thread you will see why I feel this way. I do not really wish to retype all that information. Lilly

fjtoth

Lilly,

I think you have me confused with someone else. I don't recall ever asking you what your beliefs are about the Holy Spirit, so why should I take the time to go back to find out what you wrote previously?

Frank

lovelylil

Peace, Lilly

I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

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