Frank
''Course, i know that it's beyond your jw trained, logic based mind to comprehend.
I greatly admire your immeasurable humility. No wonder you're so full of infinitesimal and incalculably minute wisdom!'
No problem. Your loftiness of cerebral stature makes your infinitely loftier and omnimagnificent god, who is out there somewhere, proud of you. You can aspire, one day to becoming an accomplished theologian. Frank dod, how cool.
S
I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!
by Witness 007 343 Replies latest jw experiences
-
Satanus
-
Satanus
Frank
The lowly tree is to ignoble for you to even comment on. Jesus liked talking about trees. I also like trees.
S -
fjtoth
jwfacts,
Early Christians had to develop the Trinity or some similar teaching, because monotheistic Jews could not possible worship two Gods - God the Father, and Jesus - hence the concept fusing of the two as a single entity.
Trinitarians say God is a Divine Three, not a Divine One. Jews and Muslims are in agreement that Christianity as practiced today is not a monotheistic religion. Most Jews and Muslims reject Christianity, and a prime reason is the Trinity teaching. Though Trinitarians can't seem to fathom it, Jews and Muslims see clearly that Trinitarians do not worship the unitary God of Abraham, Moses and the nation of Israel. Trinitarians also can't seem to fathom that Jesus was not a Trinitarian and that he worshiped the same God of the Old Testament who was worshiped by faithful Jews and proselytes. I believe Jesus would say to Trinitarians, "You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews." (John 4:22)
So how has the teaching of the Trinity helped the Jews, as you claim?
fjtoth
-
BurnTheShips
Trinitarians say God is a Divine Three, not a Divine One.
No. We beliee that God is one being. I have already said this several times on this thread. To repeat again, I will quote Wikipedia's entry on the Trinity here:
The Trinity is a Christian doctrine, stating that God is one Being Who exists, simultaneously and eternally, as a mutual indwelling of three persons (not to be confused by "person"[1]): the Father, the Son (incarnate as Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. Since the 4th century, in both Eastern Christianity and Western Christianity, this doctrine has been stated as " three persons[2] in one God," all three of whom, as distinct and co-eternal persons, are of one indivisible Divine essence, a simple being
You continue:
Jews and Muslims are in agreement that Christianity as practiced today is not a monotheistic religion. Most Jews and Muslims reject Christianity, and a prime reason is the Trinity teaching.
That is a non sequitur, really. Jews (the religion, not the people) believe that Jesus was not the Christ. Muslims believe that Jesus was not the son of God, or that indeed, he did not even die on the cross. Should Christians abandon these beliefs to make their faith more palatable to them as well? You remind me of Michael Servetus with that line of reasoning.
I believe Jesus would say to Trinitarians, "You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews."
Salvation came through the nation of Israel, as was God's plan. God had revealed Himself to Israel, as was his intention, to paraphrase Hebrews, "through the prophets in various ways and times". They knew God through this revelation, but the revelation was by no means complete. If it was, why bother sending the Son to teach them (and the world)?
Burn
-
fjtoth
Sirona,
Is Jesus a true god or a false god?
Your question is a real puzzler to those of us who can't conscientiously accept the theory of the Trinity. I would think you would see the answer in the following questions, and I can hardly understand why you don't:
1. God assigned Moses to be God to Aaron and Pharaoh. Was Moses a true god or a false god? (Exodus 4:16)
2. The angels and the judges of Israel were called "God" (Exodus 21:6; 22:8; Psalms 8:5; 82:1, 6). Were the God-appointed angels and judges true gods or false gods?If men and angels who ranked lower on the scale of God's servants than Jesus were called "God," why is there a problem with Jesus himself being called "God"?
What Trinitarians overlook, in my view, is the Biblical law of agency. As stated in The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion, "A person's agent is regarded as the person himself." According to that principle, God the Father has the right to appoint others to represent him as God and to speak to others as if they were God himself. Moses was not God, but we read: "Then the LORD said to Moses, 'See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.'" (Exodus 7:1)
The angel of the Lord was not God, but he bore the authority of God's own Name. God said, "Be on your guard before him and obey his voice; do not be rebellious toward him, for he will not pardon your transgression, since My name is in him." (Exodus 23:21)
To an even higher degree than the angels, Jesus was "given" absolute authority to act for the One God, his Father. He said, "All authority has been given me." (Matthew 28:18) Jesus did not always possess that authority. He said: "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father." (Matthew 11:27; Luke 10:22) Also, "The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand." (John 3:35)
Jesus will not always possess the authority God has "handed over" to him or placed "into His hand." "For He has put all things under His feet. But when He says, 'All things are put in subjection,' it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:27, 28)
And Jesus has not alway been Christ, Lord and God in the sense I've just explained. The angel Gabriel in his announcement of Christ’s birth told Mary that Jesus "will be great and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end." (Luke 1:32,33) Jesus was not born as a "great" God. No, the angel said he "will be great." Years later, Peter stated: "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. ... Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified." (Acts 2:22, 23, 36)
There is only one Almighty God, namely, "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 1:3) Second in command, according to the Biblical law of agency, is the One he has anointed and appointed to be his special agent, his own Son born to Mary.
fjtoth
-
reniaa
lovely rebuttal fjtoth :) lets see some trinitarians explain this :)
/bow
reniaa
-
fjtoth
Burn,
No. We beliee that God is one being. I have already said this several times on this thread.
Apparently you aren't aware of how other Trinitarians speak of God. In conversations I've had with pastors and missionaries, in books I've read, and in thousands of occurrences on the internet, the triune (3 member) God has been referred to as "the Divine Three." That is in sharp contrast to the Bible which always speaks of God as "One" and never as "Three".
Frank
-
Terry
The very first issue to tear the early "church" apart was this discussion about "who"/"what" Jesus' essential self is.
Hint: the division split the church and the split still stands today: Catholic vs Orthodox Church.
The "nature" of Jesus and the nature of God could not be settled satisfactorily by the greatest minds of the day. Guess what? They were a whole lot closer to the "actual" day and time of Jesus ministry than we are today. If they couldn't settle it; neither can we settle it.
A whole lot more interesting is this. The fixation on scripture to "prove" things.
The most fundamental question of all is whether scripture can "prove" anything.
I'll end the suspense and tell you why.
There is no scripture.
No. There were only stories which got written down and attributed to various friends, associates and disciples.
This is the KEY point.
You cannot really harmonize scripture with fact because scripture isn't fact; scripture is written hearsay misattributed to eye-witnesses and "inspired" persons.
This is like a magic trick. The premise is a misdirection. Once you buy in to the premise all your conclusions will be at odds.
Intelligent, logical, well-meaning people will ALWAYS be at odds over the "meaning" of scripture because there is no scripture if we are calling scripture the actual inspired message of God.
If you can admit that, then, all arguments will cease.
The LIE is that of scripture and not the reasoning behind pointing to inerrancy or contradiction.
JESUS can only be who he really was. We cannot know who he "really" was because all we have to go on is hearsay written down as divine.
Opinion is manmade guesswork.
That is why this argument is spurious.
-
fjtoth
Terry and Sirona,
There are thousands of scholars who disagree with you. If you don't look to the Bible for authority, who or what is your authority? It's easy to sit back and pontificate on what you think is the truth, but that doesn't make it so.
Persons who have never experienced a bonafide relationship with Jesus Christ and his Father cannot know the genuineness of the Bible until they do. They cannot know the profound firsthand knowledge of getting prayers truly answered nor undergo the thrilling sensation of having the spirit of God in their lives.
fjtoth -
Sirona
fjtoth,
You make some really interesting points. Thanks.
I think that those who are involved in the biblical debate will respond to the particular points raised.
As for me, I'm not trinitarian or Christian. I agree with Terry that
You cannot really harmonize scripture with fact because scripture isn't fact; scripture is written hearsay misattributed to eye-witnesses and "inspired" persons.
In fact, fjtoth, if what you pointed out is correct, NEITHER view makes much sense.
Sirona