by hawkaw 589 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • hawkaw

    More Emails flying between Steve Bates, Reporter for the Guardian and Paul Gillies, WTS Press Man for Britian.

    First the Gilles letter

    "Paul Gillies" < [email protected]> on 25/10/2001 05:56:19 pm

    To: Stephen Bates/Guardian/GNL@GNL
    cc: letters
    Subject: FW: from Stephen Bates, the Guardian


    Dear Mr. Bates,

    My apologies for the delay in responding to your letter as I am at present out of the country and relying on my email being forwarded. You stated in your second article on 15 October that thousands around the world had read your previous article within hours of publication. Obviously then, the best way to communicate my response is to publish my letter in The Guardian. I have supplied you with an honest answer, but I am sorry that you do not agree with it. I do not give you permission to circulate my letter. Rather, if my letter is published the thousands who have written to you may judge its veracity for themselves.

    sincerely, Paul Gillies

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Forward Mail [mailto: [email protected]]
    Sent: 22 October 2001 07:26
    To: ' [email protected]'
    Subject: from Stephen Bates, the Guardian


    Here is Steve Bates, response

    He's written again - and here's my response too....

    ---------------------- Forwarded by Stephen Bates/Guardian/GNL on 25/10/2001
    11:02 am ---------------------------

    Stephen Bates
    25/10/2001 11:01 am

    To: "Paul Gillies" < [email protected]>


    Dear Mr Gillies

    Thank you for your response. The Guardian will not publish your letter because it appears to us to be untruthful, or possibly part of your sect's ludicrously-entitled "theocratic war strategy".

    As you must know if you have troubled to check the matter out, what you described as a library pass was in fact accreditation as an NGO to obtain access to the United Nations - that is what the WTBTS secured in 1992, after applying in 1991. If you have been informed otherwise by the WTBTS you have been misled and I expect you will want to make inquiries to discover why.

    In accordance with resolutions 1247 and 1248 of the United Nations, passed in 1968, some 23 years before the WTBTS applied, accredited organisations are required to subscribe to the aims and ideals of the UN charter, so this was not changed during the course of the WTBTS's membership as you erroneously stated.

    Furthermore, the accreditation was required to be renewed annually during the WTBTS's association, so it is inconceivable that your people in New York were not aware of what they were signing up to each year. To obtain re-accreditation someone at the WTBTS must have signed an application form each year and I would be grateful if you could let me know who that was. It appears that whoever did so may not have been informing the rest of the organisation what was going on, in applying to associate with what your literature with astonishing hyperbole described in 1997 as "a disgusting thing."

    In addition, your letter appears to be at a certain amount of variance with what your Portuguese colleague told a newspaper there, when a journalist followed up the story, that the NGO status was applied for to assist the WTBTS's humanitarian aid work in the Third World. Was it to do this or to apply much more mundanely for access to the library?

    I am sure you will understand that until these issues can be answered, the Guardian is unable to publish your letter because it seems to us to be misleading and not factually correct, indeed possibly "designed to misdirect the enemy" as your strategy has it. I note that you have so far been unable to point to any factual inaccuracies in my stories or to deny the veracity of the highly damaging statements from WTBTS publications that I quoted. I note en passant that you did not dissent from my reference to myself as bird seed and I can state that, contrary to the apparent assertions of some of your more ill-informed elders, I am neither an apostate nor an agent of the devil.

    You will however be reassured to note, I am sure, that, since my articles were widely read on Jehovah's Witnesses' websites and message boards across the world, most of whose correspondents could not hope to see the copies of the Guardian newspaper in which they originally appeared, I have published your previous letter and my response to it, and will also publish this one, there. This is to enable witnesses and former witnesses - those most affected by and interested in the stories and best able to understand them - to assess their veracity and the calibre of your response. I must say that many hundreds of them in several countries including the US doubt your version of events. If your original letter was not intended for publication, I am not quite sure why you wrote it.

    Perhaps you might also like to explain the truly distasteful images of Armageddon, including the destruction of skyscrapers, that appear in Jehovah's Witnesses' literature, which would appear to undermine any public expressions of sympathy by the WTBTS over the events of 11 September.

    Yours sincerely,

    Stephen Bates

    (Note From hawk - Steve Bates & I noted he made a minor error but it was too late. He used Resolutions 1247 and 1248. He mean't to say Resolutions 1296 and 1297 passed by ECOSOC council in the UN in 1968.)


    P.S. Here is Bates Orginal Message
    -----Original Message-----
    Subject: from Stephen Bates, the Guardian
    From: [email protected]
    Addr: [email protected]
    Sent: Mon 22/10/01 at 15:25:41

    Dear Mr Gillies,

    I have just been shown your letter, submitted for publication two weeks after my initial article appeared in the Guardian.

    I would be very grateful if you would allow me to circulate it to the thousands of Jehovah's Witnesses who have contacted me since the articles appeared because, if there was nothing secret about your association with the Scarlet-Coloured Beast, I am surprised that so many followers did not know of it, given the WTBTS's frequent condemnation of the UN in its publications.

    This may account for the witnesses' feelings of betrayal and sense of hypocrisy over the whole affair. If it was not secret and was only done to obtain a library ticket,. why did you not tell me when I spoke to you several days before the article appeared? Surely you would have known it or could have found out very easily - most press officers are able to do so.

    And why did the WTBTS decide to disaffiliate only two days after the article appeared, when the WTBTS "learned about a situation" which was anyway not secret? Any organisation which affiliates to another surely must know that it has to ascribe to its basic principles, so to pretend that acceptance of the UN charter's aims has been suddenly sprung on you is being disengenuous at best.

    As far as I can tell from your letter there are no factual inaccuracies in my reports for you have not pointed to any that you did not have the opportunity to explain to me when we spoke. I don't think the letter will be published. But then what would I know - I'm only bird seed in your demonology!

    Best wishes,

    Stephen Bates

  • Had Enough
    Had Enough

    Hawkaw and Kent:

    This just keeps getting better and better. Thank you so very much for your persistance with this and all the undeniable facts you have uncovered.

    All these scanned copies of documents and the emails, and your contacts just add so much credibility to this mess that cannot be justified by any more excuses by any JW.

    Its just so utterly unbelievable that the top dogs can continue believing they can do whatever they want and not get discovered...and then when they do get discovered, think they can explain it away.

    Just boggles the mind!!!!!

    Had Enough

    "Never doubt that a small group of citizens can change the world.
    Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
    ...Margaret Mead

  • detective

    Hawk, Kent, Stephen and everyone else:
    I can't thank you enough for your persistence in seeing that the truth comes to light on this matter. Your efforts are truly appreciated.


  • hawkaw

    Gee Detective,

    I guess you are going to have to alter your press release again. Hehehehe.

    Thanks for your and all the other peoples kind words. It a lot of work but I think it is worth it if we can get some press.

    Now LET'S ROLL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


  • Dino

    KENT!!! HAWK!!! MacH!!! Thanks, for this is truly a great day! One thing that hit me like a ton of bricks was one of the subjects in which they were associated the UN on - DISARMAMENT! Library card,Oh Really? I also must say that I am most impressed with Stephen Bates bulldog tenacity in this matter. In times past, some reporters have been snowed by the doublespeak coming from Brooklyn. Great Job Boys!! Dino

  • outnfree

    hawkaw & Kent & Stephen Bates!

    Rubbing my hands together in absolute GLEE this morning!
    THIS is fabulous!
    Cannot possibly be refuted.
    Needs to be sent to the branches and any and all Bethelites that board members know personally!
    Gotten into the hands of JW publishers locally!
    And further pitches made to the press!

    As a 'mastermind' I know has said,

    LET'S ROLL!!!


    Par dessus toutes choses, soyez bons. La bonte est ce qui ressemble le plus a Dieu et ce qui desarme le plus les hommes -- Lacordaire

  • wannahelp

    I dunno Hawk..

    Don't you have any sympathy for those 'men' in Brooklyn..

    I'm sure you are keeping them up at night.. I kinda feel sorry for 'em


    I think you told me you never were a JW, so you are not an apostate..

    I wonder if the GB is gonna have 'new light', and make an 'honorary apostate' class <G>..

  • hawkaw

    Wannahelp and others

    To make matters even more worse for the GB, I am now onto older versions on this Directory, now that I know the title.

    So hold on - More mind boggling stuff is on the way!!!!

    hawk (Gee, Honoury title - yeah, well seeing I have done enough court over the years I have been called worse!!!!)

  • betweenworlds

    (Giving Mr. Bates A standing ovation)

    Well this just keeps getting better and better!!! Or is that uglier & uglier? Both I guess. Mr. Bates reply to Mr. Gilles was absolutely fantastic. Can't imagine how they can deny any of this.

    Rock on Hawk, Kent, Mr. Bates et al.


    "The important thing is to not stop questioning" Albert Einstein

  • gotcha

    thanks for all the info...hawkaw have some questions if you don't the un book that u have obtained open to the public? if ever i go to the un local branch would they allow anyone to read that book or is it just the members who have the privilege of reading that book?..

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