Talk on Apostates

by IslandBrother 86 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  willyloman

  Okay, Island Brother, I'll respond to your original question. That's a good outline and has the makings of a very successful talk. The friends will love it and you will be complimented on your excellent use of an illustration. I liked it. I can imagine myself giving that talk. A few years ago, I would have. I was a TMS Overseer for many years. When I conducted the school, I would have commended you highly for this talk and I would have wished others were as resourceful as you. Today, I would give a much different talk. I'm older and wiser now.

  By the way, this forum is a support group for Jehovah's Witnesses who have doubts they can't freely express within the confines of the organization. Once they find out they are not alone in their doubts, many of them leave the JWs. Some of them stick around here to support others who are searching for the off ramp.

  There are hundreds of people who flock here to tell their stories who have been seriously injured by the corruption and hypocrisy they have seen in the organization. Many have been personally affected by the glaring lack of real love they found in what as supposed to be God's organization. They've been subjected to harm by arrogant elders with more ego than common sense. They've been rejected by their families and so called friends for merely questioning whether the emperor has clothes on.

  You are young. You will live a long time, yes, in this system of things. And you will learn much about the organization you believe you can depend on. You will almost certainly be disappointed. What you do then will define your character. Perhaps you will find the courage to leave, as we did, and search for your authentic self. Or you will "settle" and go along for the ride, as much on your own terms as possible, but always afraid to step out of line. You will have so much time and energy invested that it will be impossible to escape. You might not be able to imagine wanting to "escape" right now. But in time, you will.
• 

  JWdaughter

  “Acts 20:30 From among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.

  Does the WT care if the JWs are Christian or if they are Atheist? NO, the only thing that matters is that the JW has ceased to follow the WT. That they follow Christ is of no account. That is a clue that they are the ones to watch out for.

  "And now let’s turn to (Romans 16:17-18) and notice how Paul helped the Roman congregation identify the footprints of apostates. 17 Now I exhort YOU, brothers, to keep your eye on those who cause divisions and occasions for stumbling contrary to the teaching that YOU have learned, and avoid them. 18 For men of that sort are slaves, not of our Lord Christ, but of their own bellies; and by smooth talk and complimentary speech they seduce the hearts of guileless ones."

  The WT coninues to judge everything by their very narrow frame work. If you are not a JW you are following Satan. The first JW, or Bible Student CT RUSSELL, caused division and occasions for stumbling contrary to what had been taught for almost 2000 years. What is that? Is that not apostacy? Who are you slaves to? Jesus or the WT? The WT tells you what you like to hear, that you will be young and healthy forever. You will live forever on this paradise earth, with no suffering, your babies can stick their hands in the mouths of lions and be safe. No pollution, no war, no debate, no discussion, . . .well anyway, that is all extrapolated from a few diverse scriptures in the Bible. The NT speaks of Heaven and Hell. Paradise is in Heaven. If you are going by the Bible, then stop misleading yourself that the WT follows it. They tell you what appeals to you, they seduce your heart with the promise of a perfect body and never suffering. That isn't scriptural, it is a lot of whoha. One of the main passages used to support the forever on earth passages speak of men who will not die until they are old. That isn't forever. There is sin and death in the passages you are sharing with people to prove they will live forever on a paradise earth.

  This is from the New World Translation, on the Watchtower Website. Isaiah 65:17-25, please turn to your bible so you will know that I am not lying to you or twisting the words in the NWT.

  Isaiah 65:17 “For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart. 18 But exult, YOU people, and be joyful forever in what I am creating. For here I am creating Jerusalem a cause for joyfulness and her people a cause for exultation. 19 And I will be joyful in Jerusalem and exult in my people; and no more will there be heard in her the sound of weeping or the sound of a plaintive cry.”

  20 “No more will there come to be a suckling a few days old from that place, neither an old man that does not fulfill his days; for one will die as a mere boy, although a hundred years of age; and as for the sinner, although a hundred years of age he will have evil called down upon him. 21 And they will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat [their] fruitage. 22 They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be; and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full. 23 They will not toil for nothing, nor will they bring to birth for disturbance; because they are the offspring made up of the blessed ones of Jehovah, and their descendants with them. 24 And it will actually occur that before they call out I myself shall answer; while they are yet speaking, I myself shall hear.

  25 “The wolf and the lamb themselves will feed as one, and the lion will eat straw just like the bull; and as for the serpent, his food will be dust. They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” Jehovah has said.
• 

  Lady Liberty

  Dear Island Brother,

  Welcome to the forum.

  Yes, there are MANY on the forum that are active Witnesses. And even more who are lurking here. I have not had the time to read all the replys to you from the other posters, so I apologize if this has been already covered. But I think you have a gross misconception as to what an apostate is according to the scriptures.

  The definition you gave is one that you may find in any dictionary. In fact, the dictionary.com gives this definition:

  American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source

  a·pos·tate (?-pos'tat', -tit) Pronunciation Keyn. One who has abandoned one's religious faith, a political party, one's principles, or a cause.

  However, you may not realize that an "apostate" according to the scriptures is not somone who leaves their faith, but it is rather, someone who is the Anti-Christ.

  See 2 John 7

  7

  For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

  The Watchtower 1983 4/1 pg. 22 says:

  Beware

  of Apostates
  

  13

  Effort would be required to continue walking in love and truth. Explaining why, John wrote:

  "For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist." (2 John 7)

  Evidently, some false teachers had been traveling about trying to gain converts among true Christians. (Compare Acts 20:30.) Though professing to be Christians themselves, these misleading "deceivers" would not acknowledge that Jesus Christ had come in the flesh as a human. Such false teachings would undercut Jesus’ role as Messiah and ransomer, including his exalted heavenly position.—Mark 1:9-11; John 1:1, 14; Philippians 2:5-11.

  14

  John called these apostates "the deceiver and the antichrist" because their teachings were deceptive and they themselves were opposed to Christ. The apostle’s reference to "many antichrists" indicates that there were numerous individual enemies of Christ, though all together they may form a composite person designated "antichrist." (1 John 2:18) Denial of Jesus as the Christ and as God’s Son embraces the denying of any or all of the Scriptural teachings concerning him. Faithful witnesses of Jehovah totally reject the views of such false teachers.

  Now note what the difference between an apostate and an antichrist is in the dictionary:

  American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source

  an·ti·christ (an'ti-krist', an'ti-) Pronunciation Keyn. An enemy of Christ. Antichrist The epithet of the great antagonist who was expected by the early Church to set himself up against Christ in the last days before the Second Coming. A false Christ.

  So.. it is not the action of leaving your faith, but the action of opposing Christ Jesus, that makes one an apostate according to the scriptures. The real word that should be used is the Antichrist. Unfortunately though, the organization lumps everyone that leaves or that has serious sincere doubts or questions into the same boat. It is not only unfair but unloving and is certainly not Christian.

  When you knock on someones door, are you not actually trying to get them to "apostasize" their faith?? Yet you are not trying to get them to turn against Christ are you?? You see most here were very active Witnesses at one time. Myself included. Leaving everything I have ever known and everyone I have ever held dear was one of the hardest things I have ever done.

  Yet, my love for Jehovah and his son would not allow me to teach things I had come to know were not true. As a lover of truth, and knowing God hates a liar, I had no choice but to leave. Had you told me 3 years ago I would one day leave I would have told you that you were crazy! Please before you put on the judging hat that truely belongs to Jesus, please read what happened to my husband and I and perhaps you won't be so judgemental.

  I will be interested to see what your comments are after you read it. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/109978/1916656/post.ashx#1916656

  Sincerely,

  Lady Liberty
• 

  lostlantern

  Nicely said.
• 

  veradico

  I don't really like the image at all. I don't think of "following" the teachings or examples of spiritual people as a matter of forcing myself to fit into a precise pattern. A robot could mimic the precise behavior of Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tse, Mencius, Confuscius, Zarathustra, Apollonius or anyone else, but what would it matter? "Following" is a metaphor. If one tries to force one's self to fit a pattern that is contrary to human nature, as I would argue the Watchtower model is, he has apostatized from everything that is worthy of the word "divine." As soon as we turn ourselves over to others, abdicating our freedom and consequent responsibility to make our own decisions, we deprive our very lives and actions of meaning. Our feet fill the footprints of those who have gone before, and that is all. Our eyes cannot attend to the sight of the dunes and the surf and the sky; our ears cannot hear the crashing of the waves and the calls of the seabirds; we cannot smell the salty moisture in the air. For we are following the footsteps of the Faithful and Discreet Slave.
• 

  winnie

  Found-my-way,

  Hope you don't mind, but I'm going to 'borrow' you words. I only hope the receiver will read and think about them.
• 

  jgnat

  Gary....is this for real, or is this being said tongue-in-cheek? If this is for real, does anyone know if there's an audio of it available anywhere? I've got a few people I'd like to play it for.

  For real. It was part of the "Beware the Voice of Strangers" talk.

  2003 District Convention Talk on abuse issue, "Beware the Voice of Strangers" Transcript 1 Transcript 2 Listen 1 Another version given in Hawaii Listen 2
• 

  jgnat

  For my own personal reference, Dark Angle's outline:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/129322/1.ashx
• 

  daystar

  Brigid proclaimed

  I just revealed myself to my family; essentially burning my bridges utterly. And it actually felt good. The freedom to finally be who I am, not pretending

  Pretenses be damned! The truth shall set you free! (My darling, how you've grown!)

  Do what thou wilt, Island Brother.

  Unfortunately, I suspect the meaning of this will be lost upon our poor, lost, Island Brother, whose will is currently usurped by powers greater than he.

  The gods are dead, long live the gods!!
• 

  daystar

  brigid

  I still can't figure out what exactly an apostate is by the society's definition. From my understanding growing up it's anyone who has rejected the teachings of the watchtower bible and tract society or just doesn't go to meetings anymore and dares utter a peep of dissent about the organization either publically (as in this forum) or semi-privately (therapy sessions LOL!)

  Official Apostasy

  In the August 1980 edition of the monthly paper called Our Kingdom Ministry, which was sent to all congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses, the front page contained the statement that five members of Bethel, and also a number of others, had been disfellowshipped, and the article went on to speak of "apostasy" and "promoting of sectarian divisions", which could be construed to imply that those who were disfellowshipped were apostates. The article did not mentioned names related to an apostasy.

  Later on 1 September 1980 a letter to all Circuit and District overseers was sent out by the Governing Body stressing the new teaching that anyone who disagrees in thought with any of the Watch Tower Society's (aka Jehovah God's) teachings is committing apostasy (Witnesses teach that this is 'antichrist/anti-God rebellion' [citation needed] ) and is liable for disfellowshipping, even if he or she does not actually teach or spread contrary beliefs. The written official policy stated, under the heading "Protecting the Flock":

  Keep in mind that to be disfellowshipped, an apostate does not have to be a promoter of apostate views. As mentioned in paragraph two, page 17 of the August 1, 1980, Watchtower, "The word 'apostasy' comes from a Greek term that means "a standing away from,' 'a falling away, defection,' 'rebellion, abandonement.' Therefore, if a baptized Christian abandons the teachings of Jehovah, as presented by the faithful and discreet slave [the 144,000, as represented by the Govening Body of Jehovah's Witnesses] [19] , and persists in believing other doctrines despite Scriptural reproof, then he is apostatizing. Extended, kindly efforts should be put forth to readjust his thinking. However, if, after such extended efforts have been put forth to readjust his thinking, he continues to believe the apostate ideas and rejects what he has been provided through the 'slave class' then appropriate judicial action should be taken. [20] .

  Franz's commentary on this apostasy policy:

  The letter presents an official policy. It actually says that a person's believing—not promoting, but simply believing—something that differs from the teachings of the organization is grounds for taking judicial action against him as an "apostate"!

  The letter makes no qualifying statements limiting such differences of belief to fundamental teachings of God's Word, such as the coming of God's Son as a man, the ransom, faith in Christ's shed blood as the basis for salvation, the resurrection, or similar basic Bible doctrines. It does not even say that the person necessarily disagrees with the Bible, the Word of God. Rather, he disagrees with "the teachings of Jehovah, as presented by the faithful and discreet slave." Which is something like saying that a man's accepting and obeying a King's written message is no guarantee that he is loyal; it is his accepting and obeying what a slave messenger claims the ruler meant that decides this!

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Franz#Official_Apostasy