Say You're a Bethelite & Monitoring JWD - How Would You Feel About THESE??

by Seeker4 356 Replies latest jw friends

  • zarco
    zarco

    AuldSoul,

    You said “I agree, freedom would have to include searching for truth without retribution. I didn't have that freedom. I have suffered retribution for seeking truth”.

    I am truly sorry that you have suffered retribution. You have proven by your comments that you seek what is right not your own agenda and to be punished for that is awful.

    But I think freedom is more than that. Freedom would have to include helping others search for truth without fear of retribution or experiencing retribution, as well, would it not? Freedom would also be known by great freeness of speech, would it not?

    Freedom does include great freeness of speech. But when one decides - and we all decide whether to belong to an organization or not - that freeness is reduced somewhat by the ability/will of the organization to change. For instance one could not freely yell out “fire” in a crowded building unless there really was a fire. One could yell out such information in a home or another forum where the size of the audience would determine the appropriateness of such a comment. If you yelled fire in my house I could quickly determine the truth of such freeness of speech. If you yelled the same words in a dark crowded concert hall I may not be able to determine the truth of your words because of the crowd or other.

    In other words freedom of speech should be correlated to the environment in which one expresses such speech. In the organization, freedom of speech is allowed but only through limited channels. The downside is not all speech is heard, the upside is that if such speech is heard then the influence of such speech can affect 6 million people. In contrast this board allows complete freedom of speech but the potential influence of such speech is limited to those who hear and trust it.

    What retribution I have suffered I cannot possibly suffer again, unless I first subject myself again to that which initially sought to restrain my freeness of speech. I can truly compare, having had experiential knowledge of both circumstances, and state with certainty: I now have great freeness of speech, I now have freedom to seek truth; I did not previously have great freeness of speech and did not have freedom to seek truth.
    Now you have freedom of speech and freedom to seek truth and you have people within the organization which sought to restrain your speech listening to you. Do you, then, stand for freedom and stand opposed to that which limits freedom?

    I stand for freedom of ideas and expression and I understand that such freedom of expression can at times can be restricted to allow the testing of the expression before allowing the vulnerable to hear and react to it.

    Zarco

  • serendipity
    serendipity
    this board allows complete freedom of speech

    not really, but there's enough freedom.

    Glad you're posting again zarco.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    Zarco: For instance one could not freely yell out “fire” in a crowded building unless there really was a fire.

    Point well taken. I think you can sense I am not the sort to trounce through a Kingdom Hall announcing "They joined the UN Depatrment of Public Information for 10 years!" at the top of my voice.

    In your analogy, would there be problem with quietly saying to several seated nearby, "I think I smell smoke. Do you smell smoke? Was that flicker of flame at the bottom of the theater curtain?"

    My experience within the organization is that there is certainly never an appropriate time to yell "Fire!" For that matter, it is never approriate to discuss "fire", whether actually present or not. Even if it is already a raging inferno threatening to choke the (spiritual) life out of those trapped within, it must be ignored and everyone must pretend there is no fire. If you can't abide by that, you always have the option of leaving, but you need not think that those within the flames will speak to you about your choice or your reasons for it. In fact, if any inside are discovered seeking the reason for your departure, they may very well be forcibly ejected themselves...without their families.

    I think perhaps your analogy is a very fitting one to describe why the methods employed for the squelching of free speech are potentially very damaging.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    Zarco: I understand that such freedom of expression can at times can be restricted to allow the testing of the expression...

    If I remember correctly, 1 John 4:1 refers to expressions or teachings that claim to be authoritative, teachings that claim to be from God. These certainly need to be tested, especially if being imposed as God's will or requirements of God, but in the organization testing these authoritative expressions is called disloyalty to the Faithful and Discreet Slave.

    Those who claim authority frmo God, may not actually have authority from God. That is a risk that every individual is supposed to stay mindful of. Those who claim to have such authority, yet teach things that are not from God are false prophets, according to 1 John 4:1.

    Jesus said to be on the watch for false prophets, and that you would know such men by their fruitage. The fruitage of false prophets is prophecy that does not come true.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • Arthur
    Arthur

    Hi Zarco:

    I'm very glad that you are still posting. I had thought that you quit for good. It pains me to see elders such as yourself who care deeply about the flock and who do their best to help them while having to struggle with thier own doubts. I have "faded" from the organization, but there are still dozens of people that I still love and care about. I have never served as an elder. I was however, a MS for a while and served at Bethel. Personally, I did not have any significant differences or grudges against any individuals. I left a congregation that had a very wonderful elder body. I still have a lot of respect for those men.

    I left the organization because of it's leadership at the top, as well as the overall ideology of the organization itself. I came to realize that the GB operates very similar to the first century Pharisees. They place heavy loads upon the flock, while coercing and manipulating them through guilt and fear. They wish to enforce their own individual conscience upon others instead of allowing people's consciences to be trained by the Bible. I came to see that the JW ideology inculcates a basic mindset which worships the organization itself. It is a subtle form of idolatry that is shown toward the organization and the Governing Body. I have also come to realize the fallacy of many of the so-called "Bible based" doctrines which are unique to JWs.

    I know that you certainly will not agree with many of my statements and positions. That is certainly okay. I am just glad that you have shown the courage and the intellectual honesty to investigate the facts and gather information for yourself. That is something that so few JWs are willing to do. I myself, resisted doing so for most of my life. It wasn't until I almost committed suicide, that I knew I had to walk away from the organization and honestly address all of the doubts that I had suppressed for many years.

    Anyway, I'm glad you're here. I enjoy reading your posts.

    Warmest Regards,

    Arthur

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    Arthur: I left the organization because of . . . the overall ideology of the organization itself.

    I have been asked many times why I left, and all I have come up with is the questions that I had even though that didn't seem to convey the real reason for my leaving. It wasn't the questions that caused me to leave. It was the insight I gained into how the organization really works, through the process of trying to get my questions answered, that caused me to leave. Thank you for posting this. You have given more correct words for me to use as an answer from now on.

    Arthur: I have also come to realize the fallacy of many of the so-called "Bible based" doctrines which are unique to JWs.

    It was a shock to me when I came to realize that proving the doctrine of other religions wrong does not make my religion right, or even more correct. I always believed it did have that effect. Since other religions can do the same with many doctrines of JWs, they too can pat themselves on the back for being "more correct" . . . it all depends on what they choose to focus on.

    I have come to the conclusion that the Great Apostasy rages on still, and there is no organization serving as God's sole channel of communication on earth. I have also come to the conclusion that it will not have Pharisaical characteristics when it appears. It will not be identified by how organized it is, how effective its bureaucracy is at achieving unanimity, or how methodical it is. It will be identified by love.

    Again, thank you for helping me sort out some thoughts on this matter.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • Quandry
    Quandry

    I have come to the conclusion that the Great Apostasy rages on still, and there is no organization serving as God's sole channel of communication on earth. I have also come to the conclusion that it will not have Pharisaical characteristics when it appears. It will not be identified by how organized it is, how effective its bureaucracy is at achieving unanimity, or how methodical it is. It will be identified by love.

    I remember well when my husband and I first started studying with the Witnesses. The Vietnam war was raging. My husband was grappling with the idea of going to Canada because he did not want to kill anyone for what seemed vague reasons-"To stop the spread of communism."

    We were thrilled to know that there was a group of people worshipping God who were unwilling to fight in any man-made war. We were baptized in 1973. Charles Sunutko gave our baptism talk. He became (not so affectionately) known as the one who used the term "STAY ALIVE TILL '75!" in his convention talk somewhere around this time.

    As 1975 approached, I remember some of the controversy, but was still on this incredible "high" of finding the one true religion that was the epitome of love for mankind. I was hooked. I wanted to serve God. I did not care that others hated Witnesses, including my own family. I knew that it didn't matter, because the woman who studied with us from the Truth Book stated that the world only had about two more years. Also, the Truth Book quoted some famous person as saying that "In fifteen years from now (1960) the world would be too dangerous to live in." That settled it. Even though 1975 wasn't the date (as we knew when 1976 rolled around) it had to be so soon you could smell the perfect coffee brewing.

    What this meant for me was that the WTS had the ultimate knowledge. They had done all the research: O.K. so they didn't know the exact date, they at least were keeping on the watch. And of course, our new friends reminded us that the WTS never came out and said 1975 was the date, people read too much into their words. All was well, if not with the outside world, with the insular world of JWs.

    Of course, little things began to nag at me through the years. If the world was too dangerous to live in past 1975, where was the big A? How did the Society not know? They were so sure that 6,000 years of mankind's existance had passed. Where was the beginning of the seventh year? The great jubilee? Oh, well, soon...soon...

    One day, while on a Bible study that I was conducting, using the Live Forever Book, we were on the chapter about the resurrection. I remember asking the question about the people in Sodom and Gomorrah. Lo and behold, it bacame apparant that the book I was using was out of date. There had been a reprinting that I did not know about. My book said that these unfortunate people would not be resurrected and the new book, which the study and the other witness with me were using, said that they would be. Horrors!!!! How could this have happened. New light!!! And I didn't even know I had an outdated, wrong copy!!!!! I was unnerved to say the least.

    Years later, while in service, a woman at the door told me that our religion was false because they wanted all old literature destroyed because of so many changes they had made through the years. How dare this woman say this. I defended the WTS and the truth which was nowhere near this!!! Why, we were free to look at any older publications-we even had such in our halls! However, I did remember later that day, as I thought about that woman, that any time we did research, we were encouraged to look at the newest material first, and not go back over ten years.I wondered also why the CD did not have any references to any information published by the Society that was back before the 1960s.

    By this time, my husband was an elder. My job was to support the WTS as the best example of a Christian wife I could possibly be. Never gossip, head to the bathrooms when time to clean, always support the service arrangement on Saturday, keep a simple life. Actually, I did not want to complain because in principle, I agreed that this was the proper Christian way to live. I wanted to stay far away from the world, because indeed these people did not have a desire to live in a clean earth. All they wanted to do was wage war. I was in with the only group that did not.

    I had a nice little rut, and did not want it disurbed by nagging doubts that began to surface when the doctrine of 1914 changed in 1995. Or was it 1994? Anyway, I had read and read and read the front of the awake magazine which stated that they wanted to instill confidence in me that the ones who were alive in the year 1914 would by NO means pass away until all things had been accomplished and we were in the beautiful cleansed earth. What really did me in was that when this "new light" came out, no one seemed to think it was any big deal. I remember looking around the hall as the WT study was going on, and different ones were raising their hands, spouting the new views as if they were discussing some minor adjustment in thinking. Why, I remember more controversy and discussion about changing the meeting times every year!

    I wanted to discuss the change with my husband, but he was so Mr. Elder that I became a little afraid of voicing my opinion even to him. I began to realize, somewhere in the pit of my stomach, that if I voiced my concern with this change, it would not be percieved as a legitimate question, but as a threat. I decided to keep my concerns to myself. After all, no one else seemed to be bothered. I must have a problem. I must be deficient. It certainly did not seem to me that I was a good person. After all, sometimes our family did not study the WT. I quickly underlined some words on the way to the hall so that I would not seem a bad example. Also, I wanted our daughter to go to college. She was an honor roll student always, but was small and delicate. How could she support herself doing house cleaning or cleaning offices at night?

    Some of the things the elders were doing were disturbing to my husband. There was a man and his wife, new to our Cong. that were having financial difficulties. The man was severely diabetic and had other health issues. She had to take him to various doctors and had only a part time job. They were in their late fifties. I gave her ten dollars for gas. I knew that a couple of others had given her a little bit of money for gas or had taken the husband to the doctor. I thought that was nice. However, my husband came home upset one night after an elder's meeting. He said that the elders had discussed how she ought to be out working full time. They said they knew that even though their family was not in the Truth, and even though her family would only take her in and not him, that is what should be done. They begrudgingly appointed someone to look into public assistance for them. Not one of these men said anything about giving them any money, even though many of them drove Lexus SUVs and lived in very expensive homes. My husband was so disgusted.

    Now hubbie wanted to delete himself as an elder. He did not feel as though these men were loving. He also said that the P.O. was an unfeeling man. I tried to tell him that he was needed, as the one that I knew would do everything in his power to help people and be their advocate. He said he was getting burned out. I could see it.

    More later.

  • johnny cip
    johnny cip

    zarco said;Freedom does include great freeness of speech. But when one decides - and we all decide whether to belong to an organization or not - that freeness is reduced somewhat by the ability/will of the organization to change. For instance one could not freely yell out “fire” in a crowded building unless there really was a fire. One could yell out such information in a home or another forum where the size of the audience would determine the appropriateness of such a comment. If you yelled fire in my house I could quickly determine the truth of such freeness of speech. If you yelled the same words in a dark crowded concert hall I may not be able to determine the truth of your words because of the crowd or other.

    i ask a simple question . what org has been screaming FIRE. in large crowded buildings ever since i can remember from the 1960s. i had no freedom . when i told the jw's in the early 70's . i didn't believe in 1975. i just got my ass whipped by my dad. and told 1000's of times i would be destroyed in 1975, by every jw' adult. this was all tied in with the generation of 1914. etc. i was forced to sit in thoses conventions. day after day . right here in new york city. AND HEARD FRED FRANZ AND OTHER BETHELITES SCREAM FIRE , FIRE FIRE, NOT ONE OF THEM WAS RIGHT. I HAVE SEEN MOST OF THESE OLD TIMERS DIE. OR WHEN I RU INTO A FEW STILL ALIVE TODAY. THEY LIE TO MY FACE. AND TELL ME THEY NEVER TOLD ME SUCH THINGS 35 YEARS AGO. I HATED THE hall and the teaching from the time i was 10 years old and even in the 60's could see, it w3as mostly B.S. i never became a jw or even close to it. watched my aunt die die from the blood doctrine in the late 70's even tho she left the wt . and accepted blood but it was to late. they cursed my aunt. to no end. i didn't see any love here. funny her funeral was at a catholic church. this devote jw. it was a nice loving service. and the few jw family members . stood outside the church . on orders of no freedom of conscience from the WTBTS. thats were they learned to disrespect the living and the dead. the wts. but they all showed up for the free meal. in my book that is being a hypocrite. fast foward to 1998. my dad the holier than thou. jw. starts to push the old wt junk dowm my throat when i was down and out. but now i'm older and smarter. and start testing the wt mag's and old books i studied as a kid. i was told CLEARLY THE WT HAS NOTHING TO HIDE. "LOOK UP ANY THING IN WT BOOKS I WANTED. I WOULD FIND NOTHING BAD" it was all food from JEHOVAH'S TABLE. well it only took about a month. without the internet. to have my dad call the police on me next to every day. because he or none of the elders sould handle me or the wt lies . flip flops, false prophices, etc. you name it i found it. the end result was i was kicked out to live in the street . because i proved it an incontravertable fact that the wt is full of shit. what really amazed me was how Little , these life long elders, p.o.'s,bethelites etc, knew about the wt history. it was truely a sad experence. i could go on for hours. but i hate to type. i mean no disrespect. but i wouldn't even let anyone that defends the wtbts pet my dog. john

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    johnnycip,

    i mean no disrespect. but i wouldn't even let anyone that defends the wtbts pet my dog.

    Well, two years ago you wouldn't have let me pet your dog. I think you are a little too hard on people who come here as apologists. Especially when they are admittedly not certain they are right. But...to each his or her own.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • zarco
    zarco

    Quandry,

    I look forward to your continued comments. Thanks for sharing your experience.

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