Say You're a Bethelite & Monitoring JWD - How Would You Feel About THESE??

by Seeker4 356 Replies latest jw friends

  • PopeOfEruke

    Hey Confusa.

    For me, I couldn't correlate the "organisation is Imperfect" concept with Jehovah, who is perfect. Why the heck should Jehovahs organisation makes such terrible mistakes, backflips, new light/old light/new light/old lights toggling, for decades and decades, if Jehovah a god of PERFECTION is truly at the helm? And outright lies!!! Satan is the father of the lie, not Jehovah. Liars could NEVER be supported by Jehovah.

    And the flipside: IF we say the organisation is imperfect and makes mistakes but Jehovahs forgives, then what sets JW's apart from say the Catholics? They must also be "allowed" to make mistakes and be forgiven too!. We as JW's can't claim the leeway of being imperfect but deny this same leeway to other religions.

    How can the "true" religion be identified as the ONLY TRUE RELIGION when it is no different to any other religion?

    As proof of my argument, I mentioned on various occasions to my still-JW relatives about the child abuse issue and you know what the standard response was? They said "Well, child abuse happens in all religions, no just ours". Which is TRUE of course, but then please explain how you are the ONLY TRUE RELIGION???

    That's what led me to abandon the "truth". And I never looked back. "All it takes for a tyrant to prosper is for good men to do nothing."

    I wish you well on your journey. Please follow your heart, if you look into it deep enough you will clearly see the truth there.


  • AlanF

    Zarco said:

    : The point from Luke 21:8 is well taken.

    It's not just well taken -- it's definitive.

    Just suppose you were a Christian but not a JW and you knew exactly what Luke 21:8 says. Suppose some supposed Christian came along and told you, "Hey! I know the year when the end is coming, because I've carefully examined the Bible and God is using me to tell this to the world." Isn't it beyond obvious that you'd peg this guy as a nutjob? And as one who clearly violates the spirit, not only of Luke 21:8, but of Matthew 24:36 ("Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father"), Matthew 24:42-44 ("Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know one thing, that if the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. On this account you too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming"), and Mark 13:32-37 ("Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father. Keep looking, keep awake, for you do not know when the appointed time is. It is like a man traveling abroad that left his house and gave the authority to his slaves, to each one his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to keep on the watch. Therefore keep on the watch, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether late in the day or at midnight or at cockcrowing or early in the morning; in order that when he arrives suddenly, he does not find you sleeping. But what I say to you I say to all, Keep on the watch.")? If you'd peg this guy as a nutjob, then why not the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, and all those who knowingly support it, given that these men have violated the spirit of these scriptures since before the founding of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania?

    Now just suppose that you come to a point where Jesus confronts you and says, "Hey, Zarco. How come you ignored what I said in Luke 21:8?" How would you answer? Do you really think that Jesus would accept excuses? By "excuses" I mean all of the usual bullpucky that a lot of JW apologists might spew forth today, but that you and I know is just bullpucky. I can see that you're honest enough to see what I'm getting at.

    I know that I'm being hard on you here, but it's not just on you. I'm being hard on all those who claim to put faith in the Bible and Jesus Christ, yet violate extremely clear proscriptions on what they should proclaim about the time of "the end".

    : It is probably one of the most embarrasing scriptures given the organizations history of predicting the end date several times. I have not studied the scripture in depth - I will.

    Good. But don't rely on WTS publications, because the only thing you're going find of substance will be what I mentioned to you about some comments in a 1964 Watchtower. Why do you think the Society has avoided commenting on this scripture? I'm convinced that it's because every one of their writers who has carefully considered it immediately figures out that it's not a subject they want to tackle, since the words are clearly condemnatory of Watchtower practice for some 130 years.

    : Another poster uses the phase "cognitive dissonance" - it seems to apply to me.

    I agree. Perhaps a clearer term would be, "Knowing how to do what is right but not doing it because of other considerations." I'm fully aware how painful this can be, because I was in this situation for many years. Over a period of time, you gradually become more and more aware that you can't stand the crap, the lies, the subterfuge, the pretending.

    : The conflict of thoughts / actions is ongoing but the tension is not unbearable.

    Much like that elder I mentioned earlier. Some years ago, I respected this elder because of his desire to help other JWs. While I still understand this, I've come to realize that in the long run, it probably would have been better for him to have quit the JWs (for the 2nd time) and not given in to his wife's emotional blackmail (which worked 35 years ago) for the 2nd time, but quit, and clearly stated to other JWs the reason he was quitting.

    You must realize that the Governing Body, in its almost infinite hubris, listens to very little but the statistics on how the JW organization is doing in terms of numbers. If the numbers appear to be going up a bit, then that's proof of God's blessing. If the numbers go down, it's the opposite, and only then do these charlatans act.

    : The tension is lessened by doing what I can within the confines of the Org.

    The elder I mentioned sometimes said the same thing, that he was interested in keeping "the wolves" at bay. He was proud, like you, that he not once participated in a disfellowshipping.

    : Even though I was raised in the truth, I have mentally fought the teaching that the end is just around the corner by making most all of my decisions based on the long range view, in other words that I am going to live for 70 or 80 years so I better plan for it. When I talk to others about decision making I encourage them to do the same.

    Very good!

    : I suspect that someday I will resolve the tention by refusing to believe the WT teaching that the end is near, but I am not there yet.

    Why not? All the evidence is there for the grasping.

    : To all the posters new and old - I have been afraid to ever post here and it took months of lurking and a timely subject by S4

    Join the great crowd.

    : - but the responses to this topic have been stimulating. We are all biased but to hear different views and fears/doubts clearly explained is a treasure. This interchange is exactly what should take place inside any healthy relationship. Really happy that I joined and posted.

    Precisely what most of us ex-JW critics want practicing JWs to realize! The fact that such interchanges are impossible within the JW organization (except by clandestine means) is proof that this organization has nothing to do with God. See my above post to confusa for a few quotations that prove my point.


  • JWFreak

    Wow I cant believe that I am doing this I am also a lurking elder, MTS Graduate who has not had the guts to post before Well here I am.............Lets see how this goes LOL JWF

  • under_believer

    This thread is all kinds of crazy. S4, I salute you for lighting this fuse. I suspect this is beyond your wildest dreams.

  • ringo5

    Hey JWF, Welcome! Don't sweat it, as you post more, it's gets easier expressing yourself and getting things off your chest this way. It's works the same way for trauma victims, the only way to heal is to talk about it with friends. And for most of us who took these initial steps, we knew there weren't too many witness friends we could really open up to relating doubts, without fear of Mother (you know who I mean). This type of board can help us take some initial steps of discovery and healing. Hope to hear more from you....

  • Arthur

    Welcome JWFreak

    This is a great place for research and support. It has been a "Godsend" for me. Hope you stick around a while.


  • imfreeimfree

    Warm welcome to all newbies!!!

    Has Jehovah ever played a part in it this organization? I think not. How can they claim to be "spirit directed"? Has Jehovah?s Holy Spirit made so many mistakes that it has been necessary to change thirty doctrines or teachings in the past fifty years? That is one every eighteen months or so. I feel that is an insult to God and our Lord Jesus.

    I started pioneering mid 40ties and was deeply involved in the organization for many decades, including several years in Bethel. For quite some time I too struggled with issues I could not resolve: perhaps it is God?s organization, they are imperfect men, and God will eventually set everything right. I too tried to influence from within. In time that was relayed to HQ and my opportunities to help others inside were severely curtailed.

    I had to face the appalling truth. Though there are many fine people in the rank and file, the head is spiritually bankrupt, and when I realized that, I could no longer support the system I felt was dishonouring God.

    What helped my dear wife and me to make sure of all things, were the two publications by a former member of the governing body, Ray Franz, and to prove beyond any shade of doubt that they, the GB have never been "appointed", is the book published by Don Cameron: "Captives of a Concept". You may choose to order at:

    Rays books "Crisis of Conscience" and "In Search of Christian Freedom" are available at:

    Best wishes to our new posters and guests.


  • Arthur

    In answer to the question that was posed in the title of this thread:

    Quite frankly, I don't think that any loyal Witness who was "monitoring" this site would really care too much about the heartache that was being shared here. Any Bethelites who are monitoring this site are not doing so for benevolent reasons. They are doing it to gather "intel" or to dig up dirt about "apostates". In the minds of the GB, and the WTS elite, anyone who leaves the organization for any reason is considered a "Korah" or merely a narcissistic malcontent. There is never any justifiable reason for leaving the "Mother". I don't think that any of us should delude ourselves into thinking that the WTS is interested in those who have left the organization for conscientious reasons. Our leaving the organization for doctrinal reasons has forever branded us "haughty", "hard-hearted", and "Godly opposers".

    In the minds of the organization's elite, the whole "wait on Jehovah" concept trumps anyone's arguments as to the WTS's being a false prophet, ruining lives with it's policies, or teaching false doctrines. They are completely indoctrinated with the concept that to leave the WTS, is to leave Jehovah God; no exceptions. Once someone has fully internalized this concept; I'm afraid that they are impervious to any rational dialogue or evidence to the contrary.

  • V

    This is becoming one of the most striking threads I have seen on this site.

    I too, maintain an active role as a JW for many reasons...all of those reasons are humans by the way.

    I congratulate every new poster who has had the courage to step from the shadows. Each one of them seems to be at a different stage of awakening, yet all are intelligent and careful thinkers.

    All this proves to me there are so many more JWs who lurk here without posting. This is as validating for them as it is for me.

    How does Bethel feel about this? We know that the internet "threat" is so valid that avoiding chat rooms was listed in the 2006 DC resolution.

    I believe that the term "chat rooms" as used by the Society is a purposeful misnomer for their real target: discussion boards like this. But the Society's hands are tied in this information war. Any specific denunciation of JWD and the like would only send the curious here in droves.

    The awakening is in full swing.

  • AuldSoul
    imfreeimfree: disprove beyond any shade of doubt that they, the GB have never been "appointed"

    This is the best bit of advice I have seen in this thread so far. Thank you.

    Current JWs who wonder whether Jehovah will correct things and they will be left out of paradise at the last minute are really crediting that Jehovah at some point in time chose this organization. All it takes to permanently dispel the notion that the Governing Body was ever appointed by God is to trace back the origin of the Governing Body doctrine.

    The current Governing Body is directly descended from appointees by vote of men, who were directly descended from appointees by vote of men, and so on until you reach the corporate heads of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society started by C.T. Russell. At no time did God choose the Governing Body. They chose themselves. Since God never chose them, their doctrine has never been subject to God's oversight or correction. Any corrections in doctrine that have occurred have taken place as a result of votes by a small group of men God never appointed to that task.

    It is no more or less likely that God will correct Southern Baptists or Lutherans than that He will correct JWs. Once someone studies the history out thoroughly, it is plain that God will not correct the organization. It is a man-made organization, it is nothing to do with God.

    Psalm 146:3 says: "Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs."

    Under the guise of "representing" the Faithful and Discreet Slave (which no human can accurately identify by organizational measures in any case), the Governing Body insinuates itself between every human and God. Disloyalty to the Governing Body is equal to disloyalty to God. Challenging them or their teachings is equivalent to challenging God. Leaving them is equivalent to leaving God. In what way have they not made an idol of themselves? In what way have they not seated themselves in the seat of the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ?

    Matthew 23:2: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses." The Governing Body is what they themselves condemn.

    Once someone investigates thoroughly enough to know that Jesus wouldn't have claimed this religion in 1918, the very year J.F. Rutherford falsely proclaimed to the world that "The World Has Ended--Millions Now Living Will Never Die" and that "by 1925 we should expect the return of the ancient worthies," once someone knows Jesus would have rejected this religion because of what they were teaching in 1918, there is no longer any need to wait on Jehovah to fix it and no reason to expect he would fix this false religion instead of some other false religion.


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