Say You're a Bethelite & Monitoring JWD - How Would You Feel About THESE??

by Seeker4 356 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  AuldSoul

  dozy,

  His argument was that all he had ever learned from the bible was by being a witness and that no other org was conducting such a huge preaching campaign.

  I am amazed by this line of reasoning. I can't comprehend how an organization of men can be given credit for what God has done even while recognizing that the organization is corrupt. If every Jew had this same perspective when Jesus arrived no one would have followed Jesus.

  According to the Bible, knowledge and comprehension of the Bible does not come from an organization, it comes from holy spirit. Much of the "knowledge" the WTS teaches is provably false and is based on nothing more substantial than, "Because, we say so. That's why."

  I sincerely want to understand the defense for keeping oneself attached to a false religion in the hopes that it will someday become the true religion. Any help you can offer along those lines would be most appreciated. It strikes me that persons raised Baptist could honestly state that all they ever learned from the bible was by being Baptist. The same with most religions that take on the label of Christianity. Can that really be a valid basis for staying with a religion that actively teaches falsehoods as truth?

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
• 

  jayhawk1

  Auldsoul said,

  A bit of food for thought...did Jesus recommend sticking with a corrupt organization or did he openly and brazenly incite people toward apostasy? (John 9-10)

  Where in the Bible do you find the concept of "waiting on Jehovah" to correct organizational problems? Where does the Bible show Jehovah operating spiritually on an organization? As I recall, the arrangement of the chieftans was Jethro's idea and having a human king was the idea of the people. But Jehovah always worked with individuals, as far as I can tell.

  I have not read page 2 yet, but I feel the need to address this.

  I couldn't agree more. This isn't too far from what I told my former Elders. "Fix your problems and get rid of the traditions of men, then I'll come back." More people need to wake up and realize waiting on Jehovah is not going to fix anything. When the men in charge see the number fall dramatically, then they will actually be motivated to fix something. In other words, light would be forced to get brighter.
• 

  jayhawk1

  His argument was that all he had ever learned from the bible was by being a witness and that no other org was conducting such a huge preaching campaign.

  Actually there is another org that coducted an even bigger preaching campaign. They was known as the Conquistadors. If they couldn't convert the natives, they just killed them.
• 

  AuldSoul

  If a large, successful, and intensive preaching campaign is what proves God's spirit is with a religion, the Evangelicals have it nailed down tightly. They are everywhere JWs are, and well beyond.

  Even the Mormons outdo JWs. By a lot. "But," JWs respond, "they teach things that aren't true, though!"

  If a successful worldwide preaching work IS THE MARK, then JWs are beat out by several other religions.

  If accurately teaching the Bible is the mark, then JWs are no better than any other and worse than some.

  If "love among yourselves" is the mark, JWs finish poorly among the religions I have seen.

  If reliance on the teachings of men who proclaimed themselves to be chosen by God is the mark, JWs have no peers and must be the true religion.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
• 

  toreador

  It will take years to sort it out
• 

  tijkmo

  jw col.....im feeling ya buddy

  Disfellowshipping is used to demoralize and to discourage and to engender fear. I was told point blank "you are repentant...we know that, but we feel that you can't really be fully repentant unless you are disfellowshipped." LOL There is no system to address gross or deliberate errors on the part of those taking the lead, therefore it continues. We are all supposed to be brothers, yet the heirarchy of the Pharisees is alive and well in the organization. I feel it is God's organization still, just as when the leaders of Isreal did what was wrong.

  I know I'm wrong to walk away and to be an immoral person, but I guess I don't care anymore.

  One thing that really bothers me is that the elders in my new hall keep telling me that there is no minimum time, but that it will probably be a year...I'm not at 6 months yet. How can they excuse that lie? They have broken down meaningful guidelines into nothing but oppressive, damaging rules that are meant to condemn instead of help. I have a hard time believing how they can think that this is the way Jesus would have done things.

  hope does not spring eternal...hope can drive a man insane
• 

  dozy

  If a large, successful, and intensive preaching campaign is what proves God's spirit is with a religion, the Evangelicals have it nailed down tightly. They are everywhere JWs are, and well beyond. Are they? Other than their bizarre TV evangelising efforts filled with demands for money and wild emotional sing-songs and appeals which immediately put off any right minded person , I've never , ever , ever had any contact whatsoever by them (other than when I call on them in the ministry). And I live in an area popular with evangelicals who regularly establish new churches when they fall out with each other. There is a man who shouts at hapless passerbys in the street occasionally , before the police move him on. Does that count as "an intensive preaching campaign?"

  Even the Mormons outdo JWs. By a lot. "But," JWs respond, "they teach things that aren't true, though!" In fairness , the Mormons have some fairly bizarre beliefs and would admit that they have relegated the bible to second place behind the book of Mormon (which is demonstrably false) - it contains large swathes of the book of Isaiah from the KJV including translation errors despite supposedly being written hundreds of years previously. The preaching is limited to young evangelists on a 2 year tour of duty - the average r & f Mormon doesn't preach or even have much knowledge of their beliefs.

  If a successful worldwide preaching work IS THE MARK, then JWs are beat out by several other religions. Such as?

  If accurately teaching the Bible is the mark, then JWs are no better than any other and worse than some. I'll agree that they are no better than some other chuches. Accuracy is difficult to establish.

  If "love among yourselves" is the mark, JWs finish poorly among the religions I have seen. What other religious order refuses to go to war and kill fellow members in other countries?

  If reliance on the teachings of men who proclaimed themselves to be chosen by God is the mark, JWs have no peers and must be the true religion.

  The above is why some (including my friend previously mentioned) feel that despite all their faults , there is some merit in JWism , and why they point to the preaching work as some support for their religion. I make no claim to be an apologist - I have tremendous doubts myself. However , I do not share Auldsoul's view that Jehovah's witnesses (or more specifically their leadership) are corrupt or evil - I take the view that they are simply sincere , honest men who try hard to discern principles and prophecies from scripture but who are misguided when they claim that they inhabit the sole channel of direction and holy spiri and who have "gone beyond what is written" in imposing further laws on their flock.
• 

  AuldSoul

  Dozy,

  who have "gone beyond what is written" in imposing further laws on their flock.

  In the Bible, this is referred to as "the leaven of the Pharisees." It is corruption. There is no other way to explain its effects on the spirituality of individuals within the organization.

  However, I do not share Auldsoul's view that Jehovah's witnesses (or more specifically their leadership) are corrupt or evil...

  I do not grasp how your explanation of the JW leadership that followed differs on any point from the explanation of the Pharisees that would be offered by any "faithful" Jew of Jesus' day. I am seeking insight into where you find a distinction between your statements about the Governing Body (because you surely know the Faithful and Discreet Slave has no actual authority) and my statements about the Pharisees.

  How can someone who claims to be God's sole channel of communication (without any evidence to that effect) also be described as humble? They cannot. So, the Governing Body (as a group) is demonstratively haughty and presumptive.

  How can someone rightly claim to teach only doctrine based on the Bible, when it can quickly be demonstrated that is not the case? They cannot. So, the Governing Body is hypocritical and deceitful.

  How can it be said that they do not seek the prominent places at the evening meals and before the assembled peoples, when any US Bethelite can quickly affirm that is not the case? It cannot. So, the Governing Body seeks to be viewed prominently among their fellow servants.

  How can they rightly claim to lead people to a relationship with God and Christ when Jesus said he was the way the truth and the life, that he was our leader, and that no one could come to the Father except through him? They cannot. So, the Governing Body shuts up the kingdom of heavens before men, they do not go in, neither do they permit those on their way in to go in.

  How can they tell others to avoid even the appearance of wickedness, yet sanction a 10-year organizational Associate membership to the United Nations Depatrment of Public Information? They cannot. So, the Governing Body binds up heavy loads of precautionary rules on others (lest the law be broken) that they are unwilling to budge with their little fingers.

  As a body, they are hypocrites and deceivers. Demonstrably so. Were the Pharisees corrupt? Was their corruption any different than that produced in the Governing Body from "the leaven of the Pharisees?"

  The coldhearted attitude of the Pharisees constituted a crime against humanity and a sin against God. (John 9:39-41) With good reason, Jesus warned his disciples, "Watch out for the leaven" of this elitist group and other religionists, such as the Sadducees. (Matthew 16:6) Leaven is used in the Bible to represent sin or corruption. So Jesus was saying that the teaching of the "scribes and Pharisees" could corrupt pure worship. How? In that it taught people to view God's Law solely in terms of their arbitrary rules and rituals, while ignoring "the weightier matters," including mercy. (Matthew 23:23) This ritualistic form of religion made worship of God an intolerable burden. (Watchtower October 1, 1998, p. 14, par. 2)

  "Abuse" is harmful corruption. "Leaven" is harmful corruption. "Leaven" is "abuse".

  "Arbitrary" means "depending on individual discretion" or "unrestrained use of authority."

  "Arbitrary rules and rituals" equals "leaven" which equals "abuse". Their ritualistic form of religion makes worship of God an intolerable burden. It constitutes "a crime against humanity and a sin against God." By their own words they stand condemned.

  Romans 2:1, 2 says: "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things." (KJV)

  So, I can't excuse them of judging the Pharisees for what they themselves do. What you choose is, of course, up to you. I do hope you will not think less of me for my choice. I am very seriously trying to grasp the rationale for your choice. I can understand choosing to stay for family or because you just smiply don't care one way or the other, and such. But I can't understand publicly excusing their Pharisaical methods as a basis for staying. I truly do want to understand, however.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
• 

  truthseeker

  Dozy,

  there comes a point when being "misguided and sincere" lacks credibility. When someone dies over not having a blood transfusion, leaving behind grieving relatives, is it really fair to say, "oh, they're sincere and misguided, they're not corrupt or evil?"

  Jehovah's Witnesses in themselves are not evil, for we were all once like them, and to some extent, there are those like myself who have to keep a toe in to maintain relationships.

  It's the blood suckers in Brooklyn that are evil.

  I've tried to excuse them in the past, thinking that they're imperfect, but real people die over thier policies.

  God only knows, Bethel must have had thousands of letters over the better part of three centuries criticising their doctrines, data setting and blood/organ policies. They know the issues we have. There is no forgiveness for them.
• 

  Doubting Bro

  Ok, you guys have finally pulled me from the lurker category. I too am currently an elder, was raised "in the truth" and my whole family and my wife's parents are active JWs. I am mentally out of the org, just trying to figure out how to do it physically with the minimum amount of damage.

  I think the thing that got me thinking the most was not the doctrinal arguements (although the 607/587 debate and in particular the circular reasoning put forth by 3rd Witness made me realize how wrong I was about that date and if that date is wrong, the entire theology regarding the FDS also crumbles). The thing that most bothers me and finally opened my eyes is the lack of real love in the congregations. It was the stories posted here and elsewhere. It was the UN fiasco, where the Society has refused to humbily accept responsibility for their error. It was the Silent Lambs stories on Dateline and their website.

  The treatment some on this board have faced has literally brought me to tears. For a time, I was very depressed. Now, I'm moving on to anger. I too have observed bad treatment at the congregations hand and my wife has seen enough to last a lifetime. But, she is still convinced that this is the "Truth".

  I know many elders who are good men, who really do care. However, the burden placed on these men by the WTS is impossible to carry. Put that with the many elders who are NOT good, who are Pharisees, who cover up evil for some and punish severly others for lessor crimes and who could care less about the folks they're supposed to be caring for and you have the state that many congregations are in.

  I need to resign my position and will do so as soon as I can figure out how to get my wife out. I plan on using some of the resources on this board to accomplish that goal. Thanks to all who have posted. You are making a difference.