by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
lol....Fisherman says he has staff on his payroll, I hope that he does not own a sign company."In case of fire - BK to the NHK and PK bloody quickly. Please be sure to JK the boos, that you are on time and a PF, then jump into a DTR. KO?"
Now, THAT was funny!
hugs,
Annie
jayhawk sorry about the tiny tiny print. It wasn't tiny on my laptop, 12 font, don't know what happened.
Strong's Greek Lexicon Search Results
Result of search for "Parousia":
3952. parousia par-oo-see'-ah from the present participle of 3918; a being near, i.e. advent (often, return; specially, of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physically, aspect:--coming, presence.
Result of search for "presence":
561. apenanti ap-en'-an-tee from 575 and 1725; from in front, i.e. opposite, before or against:--before, contrary, over against, in the presence of.
1715. emprosthen em'-pros-then from 1722 and 4314; in front of (in place (literally or figuratively) or time):--against, at, before, (in presence, sight) of.
1725. enanti en'-an-tee from 1722 and 473; in front (i.e. figuratively, presence) of:--before.
1726. enantion en-an-tee'-on neuter of 1727; (adverbially) in the presence (view) of:--before, in the presence of.
1799. enopion en-o'-pee-on neuter of a compound of 1722 and a derivative of 3700; in the face of (literally or figuratively):--before, in the presence (sight) of, to.
2714. katenopion kat-en-o'-pee-on from 2596 and 1799; directly in front of:--before (the presence of), in the sight of.
3952. parousia par-oo-see'-ah from the present participle of 3918; a being near, i.e. advent (often, return; specially, of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physically, aspect:--coming, presence.
4383. prosopon pros'-o-pon from 4314 and ops (the visage, from 3700); the front (as being towards view), i.e. the countenance, aspect, appearance, surface; by implication, presence, person:--(outward) appearance, X before, countenance, face, fashion, (men's) person, presence.
Result of search for "erchomai":
2064. erchomai er'-khom-ahee middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred (middle voice) eleuthomai el-yoo'-thom-ahee, or (active) eltho el'-tho, which do not otherwise occur) to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):--accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.
Strong's Number: 2064 | eµrxomai |
Original Word | Word Origin | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
eµrxomai | middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred [middle voice] eleuthomai {el-yoo'-thom-ahee}, or [active] eltho {el'-tho}, which do not otherwise occur) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Transliterated Word | Phonetic Spelling | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Erchomai | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Parts of Speech | TDNT | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Verb | 2:666,257 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Translated Words | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
KJV (27) - come, 1; go, 13; misc, 13; NAS (635) - arrival, 1; arrived, 1; brought, 1; came, 225; come, 222; comes, 64; coming, 87; entered, 2; expected, 3; fall, 2; falls, 1; give, 1; go, 1; going, 2; grown, 1; lighting, 1; next, 1; turned, 1; went, 18; | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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KJV | NAS | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Who is RF, AD, and BK?
Perhaps he was going to write his post in Hebrew, then changed his mind. He should have carried on, it wouldn't have made any less sense.
Thr r ths tht lkd bk mnrty thr r ths tht lkd bk mjrty
Has the 'Day for a Year' definition been discussed yet?
steve
Thanks Plmkrzy, I can read it now. My new Acer 17" monitor requires a different resolution than the old tube 17" so some quotes turn out very tiny.
Stevenyc, I would love there to be more focus on the day for a year rule. I would love to know what the thoughts are on Revelation 11:3 which has the 2 witnesses preaching for 1260 days. I would like to know if the day for a year rule applies to this. I would also like to know when this was to happen and when it is to end and what the outcome from it is supposed to be. I welcome all thoughts on it, including Thirdwitness'.
Any takers? I have no clue what that verse is talking about.
jayhawk1,
thirdwitness already said the day for a year "rule" doesn't apply there because it would seem too long. Of course, from the perspective of, of let's say...Daniel...or the apostle John, it is entirely plausible that 2,520 years "seemed too long." I know it seems far too long to me. I can't understand why thirdwitness is comfortable asserting a 2,520 year time span but balks at a time span half that long...I know for sure he won't explain it, so I didn't bother asking.
OH! Maybe...just maybe...1,260 years seems too long because it would extend the end coming well past his life span. Nah, he couldn't interpret the Scriptures as having relevance to his lifetime arbitrarily like that. That would be deceitful, and he strikes me as a person of strong m-moral f-fi-fib...m-moral...ah ferget it! I couldn't bring myself to say it without laughing.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
Hmmm, it reads like a prophecy to me. And we all have been taught by Thirdwitness that a day for a year applies to all prophecies. How can I say that this must be a prophecy? In the same chapter (Rev 11:5) it says that fire would shoot forth from the 2 witness' mouths and devour their enemies.
How many witnesses do you know that have literal fire coming from their mouths. (Holding back on Elder and Ministerial Servant bad breath jokes.)
Okay, let's say a day in this one instance actually means a day. When is it supposed to happen and what is to be the outcome?
thirdwitless wrote:
: Ok, and yes I believe the WT publication accurately quoted Josephus.
Why do you persist in 'answering' questions I did not ask?
I asked something quite different:
Did the 1996 Watchtower on parousia fairly represent Josephus' statements where he uses parousia?
Please parse the sentence carefully. It is unambiguous and each word is chosen precisely.
AlanF
jayhawk1,
It supposedly already happened. The two witnesses were "killed" by the imprisioning of the notable notables after a preaching work that apparently went from October 1914 to...well, darn. They don't say exactly when that preaching work ended, do they? Maybe we can find out when the two witnesses were killed, that surely was the terminus. One thing is for sure, though. It was a LITERAL 1,260 days, 42 months, etc. Of the sackcloth, the Revelation Climax book says:
11 These faithful anointed Christians needed the quality of endurance, for they had to prophesy “in sackcloth.” What did this mean? In Bible times sackcloth often symbolized mourning. Wearing it was a sign that the person had been brought low in sorrow or distress. (Genesis 37:34; Job 16:15, 16; Ezekiel 27:31) Sackcloth was associated with the mournful messages of doom or grief that God’s prophets had to proclaim. (Isaiah 3:8, 24-26; Jeremiah 48:37; 49:3) The wearing of sackcloth could indicate humility or repentance in view of divine warning. (Jonah 3:5) The sackcloth worn by the two witnesses appears to indicate their humble endurance in announcing Jehovah’s judgments. They were witnesses proclaiming his day of vengeance that would bring mourning also to the nations.—Deuteronomy 32:41-43.
With such confident statements as a precursor, maybe paragraph 12 will enlighten us to some solid conclusions we can glean.
12 The John class had to preach this message for a definitely stated time: 1,260 days, or 42 months, the same length of time that the holy city was to be trampled underfoot. This period seems to be literal, since it is expressed in two different ways, first in months and then in days. Additionally, at the beginning of the Lord’s day, there was a marked period of three and a half years when the hard experiences of God’s people matched the events prophesied here—starting from the outbreak of the first world war in the latter part of 1914 and continuing to the early part of 1918. (Revelation 1:10) They preached a “sackcloth” message concerning Jehovah’s judgment of Christendom and the world.
So after basically admitting they didn't know for sure WHAT the sackcloth meant, they go on to infer that they know for sure EXACTLY what it meant by finding a period of time in their organization's history that matched those events. All except...from October 1914 to the death of the two witnesses must equal exactly 1,260 days for the prophecy to be fulfilled.
In paragraph 21 we finally get the precise terminus to the 1,260 days. Except, what's this? It only says, "In the spring..." Huh, you'd think that if an organization could boast having fulfilled such a precisely timed prophecy they would toot their horn a bit. Oh, wait. They have tooted their horn about fulfilling this prophecy. But not the precision of the timing, which was emphasized repeatedly as meaning a literal 1,260 days. I wonder why?
Oh, and here's an interesting footnote on paragraph 21:
Notice that in examining the experiences of God’s people at this time, it appears that while the 42 months represent a literal three and a half years, the three and a half days do not represent a literal period of 84 hours. Likely, the specific period of three and a half days is mentioned twice (in verses 9 and 11) to highlight that it would be only a short period compared with the actual three and a half years of activity that precede it.
So...the surrounding time period was literal, but this time period was figurative. Why? Because they have already decided what time period it fit, and the events that happened don't allow for a literal interpretation of the three and a half days. Even though Jonah and Jesus have already set a motif in the Scriptures of a literal three and a half days, this three and a half days is figurative. Because they say so, that's why.
But back to this 42 months/1,260 days...it is LITERAL, as we have repeatedly been urged. And it started in October 1914, as has long been decreed by the Watchtower Society. Hey, I know! I can just add 1,260 days to October 1914 and it will come out to the right place, when the two witnesses were killed! Because this organization fulfilled the prohecy, dontchya know.
Starting from Octiber 1, 1914 and running out 1,260 literal days, we arrive at March 13, 1918. So sometime between March 13, 1918 and April 12,1918 the two witnesses died when the leadership was imprisoned. YAY! We have our time frame now. Because this organization fulfills prophecy.
But wait...when were the leaders of the organization imprisoned? On May 7, 1918.—Proclaimers (1993) p. 70
Jehovah's Witnesses—Proclaimers of God's Kingdom (1993) p. 69 A Time of Testing (1914-1918)
On June 21, 1918, J. F. Rutherford and several of his close associates were sentenced to 20 years’ imprisonment, having been falsely convicted of conspiracy. Their feelings? In a handwritten note dated June 22-23 (shown below), from the Raymond Street jail in Brooklyn, New York, Brother Rutherford wrote: “There are probably no men on earth today more highly favored and who are happier than the seven brethren now in prison. They are conscious of their entire innocence of intentional wrongdoing, and rejoice to be suffering with Christ for loyally serving Him.”
Oh dear. The two witnesses died to late for the 1,260 days to be literal. They, therefore, must be figurative. But, isn't it interesting that the Revelation book editors did not include these well known, precise dates. They chose, instead, to use a season that seemed to convey accurate fulfillment stretching 1,260 days from October 1914 to the spring of 1918, knowing full well when the terminus date they were assigning (the imprisonment of the leadership) came to pass, and knowing that the time frame did not fit a literal interpretation of the 1,260 days as applying to this time period for the organization.
In other words, the editors of the Revelation book lied, intentionally deceiving people into believing this organization fulfilled a prophecy regarding a specific literal time frame (1,260 days) that they knew the organization did not specifically fulfill.
saki2fifty, Fisherman, lurkers, this is the same organization that has trained thirdwitness to lie. They know they are wrong and they teach it as truth anyway. There is no updated correction on paragraph 21 of chapter 25. They are considering this lie as current truth in the upcoming Congregation Book Study. This is not ancient history, it is current dogma.
And it is an intentional deceit.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
That is some good stuff. Especially the paragraph that follows your last quote. Well said, for that matter all that needs to be said on this subject. I remember when I ran the numbers from the Revelation Grand Climax book I knew right then the society was dishonest.
So what about the fire that issued forth from their mouths devouring the enemies during this 1260 days? Did the society have some burning, scalding issues of Zion's Watchtower going forth from their presses? Any specific book? I would think the Revelation Grand Climax book would have said something about this too. After all they sure like to crow about the old Photodrama.
I wish I still had my copy of the Revelation book.
