by Swamboozled 601 Replies latest watchtower bible
Oh thirdwitness,
As to you posting a lightening strike with the obvious implication that we are going to die at armageddon, allow me to quote you a scripture I think apt for this discussion:
1 Corinthians 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
steve
ThirdWitness:
If you believe the Bible then 607 is the only date possible. If you put secular historians interpretations over the Bible then believe 587 or whatever year you want to believe because it doesn't matter since you make God's word invalid.
Again with the false dichotomies
So you are now reduced to one point and that point involves declaring the Bible to be wrong. You prove our point. 587 proponents must disregard the Bible to prove 587.
And again...
You are so programmed into witness-thought that you`re not even aware that you are doing it, are you. You think like this to save your own faith, not in God, but in the Watchtower Society! And you speak like this because you have been programmed into speaking like this, as an effort to persuade others (those on the brink of freedom from your mindcontrol-cult) to stay in the organisation and in the robot-like "life".
There are hundreds of millions of christians in the world who are christians, believing the Bible fully, without having to rewrite history into something that never happened to believe. This is because they never believed in your insane 1914-doctrine. I believe what you meant to say in your above post, was "If you believe in the Watchtower Societys calculations, then 607 is the right date, because it`s the only date that gets us to 1914, and never mind that the day-for-a-year-rule (which isn`t even a rule), is never mentioned about the 2520 days or in Daniel at all". I believe this is what you really meant to say. In fact, you, by this, spitting on the Bible itself, as you are by this equating the Bible with the Watchtower Society. And I don`t think God likes that you are doing that.
ThirdWitness:
If you believe the Bible then 607 is the only date possible. If you put secular historians interpretations over the Bible then believe 587 or whatever year you want to believe because it doesn't matter since you make God's word invalid.
Again with the false dichotomies
So you are now reduced to one point and that point involves declaring the Bible to be wrong. You prove our point. 587 proponents must disregard the Bible to prove 587.
And again...
You are so programmed into witness-thought that you`re not even aware that you are doing it, are you. You think like this to save your own faith, not in God, but in the Watchtower Society! And you speak like this because you have been programmed into speaking like this, as an effort to persuade others (those on the brink of freedom from your mindcontrol-cult) to stay in the organisation and in the robot-like "life".
There are hundreds of millions of christians in the world who are christians, believing the Bible fully, without having to rewrite history into something that never happened to believe. This is because they never believed in your insane 1914-doctrine. I believe what you meant to say in your above post, was "If you believe in the Watchtower Societys calculations, then 607 is the right date, because it`s the only date that gets us to 1914, and never mind that the day-for-a-year-rule (which isn`t even a rule), is never mentioned about the 2520 days or in Daniel at all". I believe this is what you really meant to say. In fact, you, by this, spitting on the Bible itself, as you are by this equating the Bible with the Watchtower Society. And I don`t think God likes that you are doing that.
Third witless, reminds me of my elder stepdad until he looked up the quoted Grayson work from the Insight vol. on chronolgy. After that he never mentioned anything else about six-oooooh-seven.......I wonder why?
EW
thirdwitless wrote:
: Funny thing isn't it.
No, it's actually pretty sad, how you can on the one hand ignore the Bible's unambiguous words and on the other hand declare it to be the Word of God, and on the one hand ignore the Society's unambiguous Scriptural interpretation of the 70 years of Tyre and on the other hand declare JW leaders to be "divinely directed".
: I show you how you are absolutely and totally wrong about what Ezekiel said about Tyre and what are your replies. All you can do is ignore my argument and declare me an apostate trying to outdo Robert King, and ignoring all your arguments when I have clearly and solidly debunk your outlandish and unreasonable and unbiblical arguments.
LOL! All of your arguments have been thoroughly debunked. That you refuse to admit it is like the Black Knight in the move Monty Python and the Holy Grail, balancing on his legless torso and flailing his armless stumps, hollering, "Come back and fight!" You've proved yourself, not just an apostate, but a moron.
: You say: Your ignoring all arguments set before you well illustrates the general moral stupidity induced in JWs by years of Watchtower indoctrination.
: Except that you're quite an anomaly in that you promote apostate views about the meaning of the 70 years for Tyre, even while railing against your fellow apostates. Are you trying to outdo Robert King?
You are most certainly an apostate as the Watchtower Society defines the term. You claim that Tyre was never rebuilt, and by extension that the Temple and Jerusalem were never rebuilt. Yet the Society states clearly that, after its destruction, Tyre was rebuilt:
it-2 p. 1136 Tyre
Despite the city’s total destruction by Alexander, it was rebuilt during the Seleucid period, and in the first century C.E. it was a prominent port of call on the Mediterranean.w59 5/15 p. 311 Tyre -- City Where Mammon Was God
In the years that followed Alexander’s conquest of Tyre, the island city managed to rebuild itself a number of times . . .pm chap. 16 p. 263 Presentation of the King Brings Release to Prisoners
The mighty rampart that Tyre built for her protection as a seafaring, commercial power did not withstand the strategy of the Grecian conqueror, Alexander the Great, in 332 B.C.E. . . Years later Tyre was rebuilt.
And contrary to your implied claims, the Bible says that both the Temple and Jerusalem, having been ruined, were rebuilt:
(Ezra 1:3) So let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and rebuild the house of Jehovah.
(Ezra 5:2) Jesh´u·a the son of Je·hoz´a·dak got up and started to rebuild the house of God, which was in Jerusalem.
(Ezra 5:16) When that Shesh·baz´zar came he laid the foundations of the house of God, which is in Jerusalem; and from then until now it is being rebuilt but it has not been completed.
(Ezra 4:11-13) "To Ar·ta·xerx´es the king your servants, the men beyond the River: And now 12 let it become known to the king that the Jews who came up here from you to us have come to Jerusalem. They are building the rebellious and bad city, and they proceed to finish the walls and to repair the foundations. 13 Now let it become known to the king that, if this city should be rebuilt and its walls be finished, neither tax nor tribute nor toll will they give.
(Nehemiah 2:17) "YOU are seeing the bad plight in which we are, how Jerusalem is devastated and its gates have been burned with fire. Come and let us rebuild the wall of Jerusalem, that we may no longer continue to be a reproach."
(Nehemiah 7:1) And it came about that, as soon as the wall had been rebuilt, I at once set up the doors.
(Isaiah 44:24-28) This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: "I, Jehovah, am . . . the One saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be inhabited,’ and of the cities of Judah, ‘They will be rebuilt, and her desolated places I shall raise up’; . . . even in [my] saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be rebuilt,’ and of the temple, ‘You will have your foundation laid.’"
(Daniel 9:25) And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·si´ah [the] Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times.
So does the Watchtower Society:
it-1 p. 51 Adornment
The temple rebuilt by Herod was a magnificent edifice.w94 6/1 p. 9 Have You Found the Right Religion?
The Bible . . . foretold the destruction of ancient Tyre, the fall of Babylon, the rebuilding of Jerusalem.it-1 p. 95 Ammonites
Following the return of the Jews from exile (537 B.C.E.), an Ammonite named Tobiah took a leading part in endeavoring to obstruct the rebuilding of Jerusalem’s walls.it-1 p. 182 Artaxerxes
Artaxerxes Longimanus granted permission to Nehemiah to return to Jerusalem to rebuild the walls and gates of the city.
And of course, the Society admits that other ancient cities were rebuilt:
it-2 p. 401 Miletus
In the fifth century B.C.E. the Persians captured and destroyed Miletus for having shared in revolt. Later (in 334 B.C.E.), the rebuilt city fell to Alexander the Great.
Reveling in your apostasy, you have the nerve to say:
: Then Alan and Steve say:
:: ... the rebuilt Tyre sits there, obstinately declaring "Here I am!"
: It doesn't matter which why you phrase it, this did not happen.
The Society declares that you are wrong, you wiley old apostate!
: So you are now reduced to one point and that point involves declaring the Bible to be wrong.
Actually, many posts, including this one, show that you claim that the Bible is wrong.
This is much like the old Vietnam era saying, "We had to destroy the village to save it!"
: You prove our point. 587 proponents must disregard the Bible to prove 587.
Again, we have shown that it is you apostate JW defenders -- including apostates like you -- who disregard the Bible. You do it on many fronts, as this thread has amply shown.
: You say that Tyre was rebuilt
So does the Society.
: and that the prophecy was wrong.
No choice. The present 270,000 inhabitants of Tyre would disagree with you.
: The mainland ruins of old Tyre and the underwater ruins of Island Tyre is good enough for me.
Yet another transparent misrepresentation. The point is not that Tyre was ruined -- all participants in this thread know this quite well -- but that it was rebuilt.
Your moral stupidity is evident when you refuse to acknowledge that "rebuilt" means "rebuilt".
: If you want to quivel
The word is "quibble".
: and split hairs with Jehovah
No. I'm arguing with you, you moron.
: as to what he meant when he said Tyre would never be rebuilt, then have at it.
I suggest that you write a letter to the Governing Body and have them correct what has been written in Watchtower publications.
: My advice to others is don't stand to close to you.
LOL! Like my Brooklyn-raised Grandpa would say, "You're some piece of woik!"
AlanF
I think that pretty much is a slam dunk.
LOL!! No way.
I already showed you that Isaiah was talking about an earlier destruction of Tyre during the time of Assyrian hegemony. The oracle even alludes to the prior destruction of Babylon, which occurred in 703 BC. Tyre indeed lay ignored for most of the 7th century BC when Assyria ruled supreme. Isaiah thus cannot be used to figure out what Ezekiel meant. Ezekiel 26 has to be read on its own terms....it only takes basic reading comprehension to understand what it says. Naturally Zechariah talks about a future judgment against Tyre because that city still existed in his day. This does not mean that Ezekiel did not mean what he said, that Zechariah can be used to override the plain statements in Ezekiel 26.
Lets stop for a moment. Notice that Tyre is to be plundered not just by Babylon but by 'many nations'. Ezekiel's words, not mine.
This does not mean that Ezekiel is talking about many different attacks of Tyre by different nations. How many different desolation events are narrated in the lament? Just one. Why does Ezekiel refer to "many nations"? Because "all the nations round about" were vassals of Nebuchadnezzar (Jeremiah 25:10-12, 27:7, 28:10-11; cf. BM 21946), and the king augmented his army with their military forces (cf. Jeremiah 35:11, 2 Kings 24:1). Thus Ezekiel earlier said, concerning the siege of Jerusalem and the defeat of Jehoiachin: "Then the nations came against him, those from regions round about. They spread their net for him and he was trapped in their pit. With hooks they pulled him into a cage and brought him to the king of Babylon. They put him in prison so his roar was heard no longer on the mountains of Israel" (Ezekiel 19:8-9). The reference to the plural "nations" does not mean that Jehoiachin was deported to Babylon multiple times by each nation but that the client nations of Nebuchadnezzar were all involved in this event. Similarly, the following reference to Nebuchadnezzar's expected attack on Egypt refers to his army as including those from the "nations": "I will put an end to the hoardes of Egypt by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon. He and his army -- the ruthless ones of the nations -- will be brought in to destroy the land" (Ezekiel 30:10-11). And regarding Tyre: "I am going to bring foreigners against you, the most ruthless of the nations, they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom and pierce your shining splendor" (Ezekiel 28:7).
End of the specific prophecy about Neb and what he would do to Tyre. How do we know this is the end of this specific part of the prophecy about Tyre? Because notice the pronoun now changes from he (as in Neb) to they (as in many nations).
Wrong. The "many nations" are the foreigners that comprised Nebuchadnezzar's military force, just as Ezekiel meant in 19:8-9, 28:7, 30:10-11, etc. In the case of Jerusalem, Nebuchadnezzar brought against this city the Chaldeans, the Syrians (Jeremiah 35:11; 2 Kings 24:2), the Moabites, and Ammonites (2 Kings 24:2). Nebuchadnezzar had control of these countries' armies and used them as he wished. So the shift in reference in ch. 26 reflects the mention of the plural armed forces in the lament:
"I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations [PLURAL-3S] against you, like the sea casting up its waves. They will destroy [PLURAL-3PL] the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away [SING.-1S] her rubble and make her a bare rock. Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken", declares the Sovereign Yahweh. "She will become plunder for the nations [PLURAL-3S], and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the sword (note that "the nations" are those with the swords, i.e. the army which will be paid with the plunder, cf. 29:18-19 "plunder to pay for his military force"). Then they will know that I am Yahweh". For this is what the Sovereign Yahweh says: "From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon [SING.-3S], king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. He will ravage [SING.-3S] your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up [SING.-3S] siege works against you, he will build [SING.-3S] a ramp up to your walls and he will raise [SING.-3S] his shields against you. He will direct [SING.-3S] the blows of his [SING.-3S] battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his [SING.-3S] weapons. His [SING.-3S] horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the horsemen [PLURAL-3PL], wagons and chariots when he enters [SING.-3S] your gates after the walls have been broken through. The hoofs of his [SING.-3S] horses (i.e. not just the horsemen but Nebuchadnezzar's horsemen) will trample all your streets; he will kill [SING.-3S] your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. They will plunder [PLURAL-3PL; again the soldiers mentioned above] your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down [PLURAL-3PL] your walls and they will demolish [PLURAL-3PL] your fine houses and they will throw [PLURAL-3PL] your stones, timber and even the dust into the sea. I will put [SING.-1S] an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. I will make [SING.-1S] you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I Yahweh have spoken", declares the Sovereign Yahweh.
As you can see, the antecedent for the plural "they" in v. 12-13 is the "horsemen, wagons, and chariots" of v. 10. It is clearly part of the same event: v. 8 refers to the setting up of siege works, v. 9 refers to the battering of the walls during the siege, v. 10 refers to the breach in the walls and the flood of forces entering the city, and v. 12 naturally describes what they do once they are inside the city: they plunder it and demolish everything inside. Yet you want to assign the plundering and razing of v. 12 to a totally different event. This is what I mean by your strained reading of the text. And the reference to Tyre being "made a bare rock, never to be rebuilt" in v. 14 reflects the description in v. 12 of the army demolishing the city and throwing the rubble into the sea. It's all referring to the same event. There is no second or third siege mentioned in the text. You cannot arbitarily split up the described seige and assign half the siege event to Nebuchadnezzar and the other half to some other unrelated attacker centuries later.
BTW, you may not notice that you are inconsistent on when the passage supposedly stops talking about Nebuchadnezzar. In your post #66 you said that the end of Nebuchadnezzar's doings is at v. 12...now you say it is at v. 11. Thus you yourself prove just how arbitrary your reading of the text is.
Ezekiel never said Neb would devastate Tyre to the point of never being rebuilt. It was 'many nations' that would carry out this prophecy.
Guess what? Nebuchadnezzar wasn't there by himself at Tyre. Just as "the nations" attacked Jerusalem under Nebuchadnezzar and just as Nebuchadnezzar's army had "the most ruthless ones of the nations," so the same would occur at Tyre. The "they" pillaging the city and detroying it are the same men who broke through the breach in the walls under the command of Nebuchadnezzar just a few verses earlier. I can't believe you can't see this.
And still no biblical proof is forthcoming against the 40 year desolation of egypt.
Your attempts to confuse the issue is brilliant. But Tyre has nothing to do with Egypt.
You have done a good job at showing that you don't believe what the bible says about Tyre, therefore you don't believe what the Bible says about Egypt. And you don't believe the harmony between Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Zechariah.
I accept your claim that you don't believe it.
As for me I do believe what the Bible says about both Tyre and Egypt through the prophets Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Zechariah. And I believe they all harmonize with one another.
Look what a coincidence.
Ezek 26: 12 And they (could this be one of the many nations) will certainly spoil your resources and plunder your sales goods, and tear down your walls, and your desirable houses they will pull down. And your stones and your woodwork and your dust they will place in the very midst of the water.’
Wow, This is exactly what Greece (one of the many nations that came against Tyre) under Alexander the Great did.
Oh, but Alan and Steve and Leo say that it was Neb that was supposed to do this. Jehovah's prophecy failed. If only Jehovah could have been more specific. How sad that Jehovah was unable to fortell the finality from the beginning. I am throwing my bible in the trash. You are right, interpretations of secular historians are wiser than Jehovah.
Hail 587 proponents for showing us the failure of this foolish prophecy of the Lord.
And also the foolish prophecy of the 40 year desolation of Egypt.
Thanks.
And still no biblical proof is forthcoming against the 40 year desolation of egypt.
Proof of what? What did I tell you yesterday about burden of proof? The burden is not on us to prove a negative but for you to substantiate this "40 years" as an actual historical period.
Your attempts to confuse the issue is brilliant.
This is what you say to avoid discussing the points I brought up. And you say we ignore your points? I've tried to contientiously address most of your claims in detail.
But Tyre has nothing to do with Egypt.
LOL, then I guess you never read Ezekiel, ch. 29 and paid no attention to my discussion of this point.
You have done a good job at showing that you don't believe what the bible says about Tyre, therefore you don't believe what the Bible says about Egypt.
Actually, I tried my best to show you what Ezekiel actually says about Tyre. You are the one who refuses to believe what it says. In fact, it seems like we both agree that Nebuchadnezzar did not destroy Tyre, despite what the text actually says.
And you don't believe the harmony between Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Zechariah.
You mean I don't try to shoehorn writings from different writers referring to totally different events as if they were both talking about the same thing? Thank God for that. I already pointed out to you that Tyre was devastated many times in its history and Isaiah was talking about an earlier devastation and definitely not one that the Babylonians had anything to do with. Just read the text. Why do you keep repeating this without even addressing the points I raised?
Thirdwitness said,
Oh, but Alan and Steve and Leo say that it was Neb that was supposed to do this. Jehovah's prophecy failed. If only Jehovah could have been more specific. How sad that Jehovah was unable to fortell the finality from the beginning. I am throwing my bible in the trash. You are right, interpretations of secular historians are wiser than Jehovah.
Hail 587 proponents for showing us the failure of this foolish prophecy of the Lord.
And also the foolish prophecy of the 40 year desolation of Egypt.
Thanks.
Amen.
