May I throw a fit?

by skyman 78 Replies latest jw friends

  • anewme

    You know at one time I took great offense here. I even stopped posting for awhile.
    Then it occurred to me that my inability to accept the expressed thoughts and opinions of others was the direct result of my being institutionalized for 35 years in an organization that kept me away from other opinions and brainwashed me to disregard all thoughts other than the ones they taught me.

    I now am kind of happy for individuals when they speak their mind (especially here because I know the prison they have been in.) This is called FREEDOM. And it is a very healthy thing.

    And though criticism is hard to take, one can learn from it.

    I have looked at other forums and been appalled at the lack of courtesy and manners. This forum is exceptionally bright and compassionate in comparison!

    That said, I hope you all continue to speak your minds and hearts freely. This discussion board is very healthy for all to grow and become something stronger than we were.


  • FlyingHighNow
    When she posts a small novel others feel they can't post because they will look stupid if they disagree with her.

    Never, ever feel like you will look stupid. We all love to hear additional opinions, information and thoughts. You may look at something in a refreshingly simple way that we've personally never thought of before. So by all means, post your ideas on Leo's research. I'm sure she loves to find out what people think of what she's found.

    I wonder how many of us ladies thought you were referring to us.

  • stillajwexelder

    Leolaia an absolute giant on this board (and in the world)

  • Leolaia

    I find it ironic that you complain about ppl treating others in a rude and mean way after the sarcastic and mean-spirited statements you made to me last night. Even in this thread you say that I must think I am "the smartest person in the world"; listen to yourself, you don't think that is mean and insulting? Well, I am insulted by what you say about me so perhaps you should try taking your own advice. If you haven't noticed, I do not get "nasty" with people and often try hard to phrase things as nicely and respectfully as possible. I do not say to people "You're the dumbest, most stupid person on the forum" which is the flip side of what you said to me. Rather than attack the person (which so many people do unfortunately here), I rather stick to the facts and evidence and the content of what people are talking about. That is what my posts are generally about.

    I'll tell you why my posts are long. It's not that I think I'm the smartest person in the world, or want to show off "Hey look at me, I'm smarter than you, so shut up", like how you sorely misconstrue it. It's because I don't want to merely state my opinion or a known fact or consensus and leave it at that. I have been criticized occasionally in the past for stating that things are so without further justification or qualification. So I back up each of my claims with evidence and facts, as well as show my reasoning and how I come to my conclusion. I do this to show why I have my opinion, why I have come to the conclusion that I have. If I just say "This is the way things are, and that's it," well, frankly, that sounds very authoritarian and dogmatic to me. But maybe if I present the evidence and specific references, and explain how the evidence points to one conclusion or another, then I feel I have adequately explained my point of view and why I feel it is well-supported and the best explanation of the evidence.

    That is what I did in your Kolbrin Bible thread. Just like you could probably detect an obviously counterfeit $20 bill, it is very easy to see .... indeed, its painfully obvious ... that the Kolbrin Bible is not an ancient document. I also made sure to point out that this doesn't mean that the book wasn't worth reading or didn't have insights of its own, I just wanted to state my opinion that this book was "almost certainly" (see that qualification?) a modern pseudepigraphal work. My original post was very brief and just stated my opinion. But when further discussion ensued, I tried to explain why I hold that opinion. Well, the best way to do that is to actually show why the book is modern, and that can only be done by actually examining it. So I thought it would be neat to take a portion of it and show exactly what aspects of it are clearly modern. This I did not to show off or insult you, rather I genuinely thought I was contributing some fresh, original research that was not off-topic at all, but was aimed at figuring out what this obscure book is. You took offense that this post was long, hijacked and ruined your thread, etc. Well, in order to show why I believed the book was modern, I have to cite examples and evidence. And that takes up space. And I wanted to show my reasoning and how the evidence points to a single weighty conclusion. If I never cited examples or gave quotes or showed my reasoning, my posts would be very short. I don't expect people to go run off to look up my references in 1 Enoch or Gospel of Thomas or what not, to see the point I'm making. It's better to give the excerpt right there in the post so people can see the connection I'm making (so much of the stuff I cite is not even on the internet). But that takes up space. To show how the Kolbrin Bible plagiarizes a source text, I have to cite it. Otherwise you'd have to just take my word for it.

    BTW, your insulting comment that the post was a product of 15 minutes of Google research is quite far from the truth. I spent over 2 hours on working on it, mostly with books in my personal library. The post would have been shorter and done quicker if there weren't so many suspicious things in that short text to comment on. So imagine spending a chuck of your day putting together some original research that in your opinion took the discussion to a whole new level and gave some new material for people to talk about, just to have it derided and used to insult you. Well screw this, I thought. If people aren't interested to know some facts about the matter, or actually try to learn something new about it, and if they insult you for even trying, well screw it then. I didn't need to waste my time doing it. I mean, it was a fun puzzle, but I don't need to be insulted for sharing it.

    So should I stop trying to show why I hold the opinions I do when I comment on a thread, and stop documenting my explanations with relevant facts and evidence? Does it actually insult and hurt people's feelings and show a lack of respect to seriously engage a question and try to give a thorough answer? Because if people think so, then I'll instead give authoritative blunt answers that say "This is what this scripture means and there's lots of evidence to support it" and leave it at that. I won't bother to try to explain why I hold my view, how it is supported by evidence, and reveal what the evidence is because that'll just take up too much space. What use is there in trying to show how one can think through an argument, especially for people exiting a cult that tells them what to think? I have opinions like all of you, fallible opinions, but in many cases they are informed opinions that best account for the facts known to me. Hence, the reason why I try to present those pesky pieces of evidence that needlessly fill up a post. But like in academia, one presents opinions that are backed up with evidence to inspire futher debate and discussion. I usually want to share this information to help people understand my point of view, to help ppl see things in a different way, to show the basis of an argument, point out flaws in another argument, and so forth.

    Well, like I said above, if it's a waste of time for me to do this and if I just end up hurting other people's feelings by trying to speak my mind (as I always do in a gentle and thoughtful way), then maybe this is not the best place for me to research topics of discussion.

  • Enigma One
    Enigma One


    I for one appreciate all the hard work you put into your posts. The other day on the Kolkin bible, it was nice to read your take on it. I surmised the book was a fakery from the get go, but your post helped me conclude it in fact wasn't what it claimed to be. This is why I like JWD. So many of us have backgrounds in so many different things. While I do not agree with some of the "heavy hitters" and their opinions, it is always nice to hear them. I defer to some of these posters on matters I have lower interest or experience with. I can offer my insights into eastern religions and resulting spirituality. As a group we surely have a much deeper grasp on history, spirituality, education, world events, and whatnot than the WTBS ever did! We are the sum of our pieces / parts. A piece on it's own may not be "worth" much, but as a cog in a giant machine, it is an invaluable component.

    Keep up the good work Leo, as I read about 75% of your posts when I come across them. There are times when I'm simply too busy to get a chance to read them, but I do print some out, read them later at home or when I'm eating lunch or something. Please don't alter your style. Thanks for all your hard work.

  • luna2

    Leolaia, I know that I am only one of many here who love seeing your posts. Please do not stop. I don't always grasp everything on the first read-through but I very much enjoy seeing your research and thoughts on any subject!

    I'm afraid I haven't read all of the pages of this thread, but I love what anewme and FHN said on this page.

    It's easy to get offended, sometimes even when no offense is intended. This is such a diverse group of people and we're not always going to hit it off with everybody nor always understand each other. I value that diversity and the difference of opinions and experiences. JWD would be a very dull place if we were all homoganized into a bland collective of people who felt they had to censor themselves so as not to rock the boat...Hmmm, sounds rather like that organization most of us either want to leave, never want to join, or are so very happy to no longer be a part of any more.

  • LittleToe

    "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned"

    Skyman:Now you're gone and done it! You've p!ssed off a woman who is your intellectual superior...

    I feel for ya man... from a discrete distance

  • funkyderek


    As regards the person I was talking about with the long post she is probable a very nice person and if I was single, and she was single, I would ask her out knowing we would have a lot fun discussing topics, she is very knowledgeable.

    I think she'd give you an atypically short answer to that


    You rock! Don't ever change

  • AlmostAtheist

    Oh damn, another "hot-or-not" thread! While truly not meaning to turn this into a "Do you like Leo's posting style or not" thread, the issue has been raised and I don't want ANY doubt AT ALL to remain in her mind.

    Well screw this, I thought. If people aren't interested to know some facts about the matter, or actually try to learn something new about it, and if they insult you for even trying, well screw it then. I didn't need to waste my time doing it. I mean, it was a fun puzzle, but I don't need to be insulted for sharing it.

    SOME people may have that view, Leo. Some people have all sorts of views. Some think we haven't been to the moon. Some think the moon is a god of some sort. But MOST people (certainly the overwhelming majority of those I've spoken to) very much appreciate the work you put into your posts and recognize the time you put on them. Myself included.

    So should I stop trying to show why I hold the opinions I do when I comment on a thread, and stop documenting my explanations with relevant facts and evidence?

    It's your time, but as long as you're willing to donate it to the board in this way, it is greatly appreciated!

    Skyman, your views are ALSO important. You seem sharp, which contrasts (in my mind) with some of the views you take. This definitely makes me think, and I appreciate that.


  • LDH


    Agree, I thought he was talking about me!

    Skyman and Leo, a couple of things to each of you. Neither of your posts have ever offended me. Then again, I don't read a lot of the long 'research' type threads because I spent enough years of my life 'researching.' Right now, my bullshit detector is set to HIGH with a hair trigger. So I didn't comment on the Kolbrin thread, even though I read it, because I would have just said something negative.

    It is healthy to have someone disagree with you (respectfully) and point out the error of your ways....think of this board as practice for REAL life, that's what I do.


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