to all jw apologist.....if your religion is so full of love then why....

by kittyeatzjdubs 71 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Death to the Pixies
    Death to the Pixies

    << it IS the norm for jw family to shun their df'd children. There is an ongoing situation in my wife's hall right now. My friend is df'd. His parents will not see him, but they try to still have access to his daughter. >>

    Reply: It is on a personal level. Each person has to make their decisions, sorry, but sometimes the ones you love need to be shown their errors so they do not repeat them. Some people are more obstinate than others, and need more dramatic measures. I do have a Brother I personally ignore, and for reasons.

    Little back-ground, my brother has done time for drug-dealing, possesion the whole package. He has had near death experiences and he still does not get it. He cleans up his act for awhile then decides to leave room for the "occasional spliff session" with his friendsThis is unacceptable to see the cycle start again. The pain goes both ways, but it is not the JW faith that causes this pain, although you wish that to be the case. It starts elsehwere.

    Anyway, this seems to be a biased forum for this type of discussion. "Shunning" does have it's place, and it is not unloving.

  • kittyeatzjdubs
    kittyeatzjdubs
    A.) Her Mom does not "shun" her D'fd sister, why? Obviously that suggests some nuances to this and probably Kittie has some issues she is not telling us. From her Moms POV, Kittie is ruining her life, maybe she has supported her mistakes in the past and she is at wits end? Maybe she is not the terrible Person after all.

    B.) She did not say she made a mistake, but had an affair, which is different than simply just succumbing to "manly sin". This is knowing you are doing wrong, potentially playing a part in messing up the pysche of another human being, causing strain in the marriage of another etc..etc.. Sorry, even apart from Christianity, this is bad, abhorrent behavior. She knew she was doing wrong, and she simply could not help it. This is a destructive personality trait that needs to be corrected. The pattern will repeat. I must say I am disappointed by the lack of thought that has gone into the "way to go Kittie" help you are giving her. You are living with some guy you love now, not married to him I gather..... Sorry to sound so conservative here, but we now how this story ends. She will be 35 before she figures this out. That is sad.

    As someone newly married, I am thinking about Kitties story, and thinking how I would feel if My mate cheated on me, or if I cheated on her. You can't do stuff like that. You got to clean that mentality up.

    C.) Not shunning D-fd family is not a rare as you think, I can think of others in my own congregation. Maybe having your "JW world" be guided largely by the internet has skewed the Reality? The persons demeanor toward "mistakes" go along way.

    answers:

    A.) My mother shuns my sister too...unless she's getting her hair done for free. Maybe I should think of some free service to offer my mother. And no there are no other issues to tell you. And no I am not ruining my life.

    B.) I don't appreciate anything you said in this comment so I will just say this. I don't need you telling me what I did was wrong. I'm quite capable of figuring that out on my own. And noone said, ''way to go kittie'', they just offered love and support. And I do not suffer from a destructive personality trait. I suffer from being human. I made a mistake. And no the pattern will not repeat. I don't plan on making a career out of ruining peoples lives. And what the hell am I going to figure out when I'm 35? I hope to god you're not sitting there trying to tell me that because we are living together before marriage that we are doomed to fail. That's the biggest load of crap I've ever heard. Love is love no matter what. If two people aren't going to make it together, there's nothing that can be done to fix that, marriage or no marriage.

    C.) That really doesn't apply to me now does it? Because my family IS shunning me. Whoop dee doo for your congregation. Their non shunning attitude really doesn't do me any good.

    So far you've offered nothing to this thread pixie. If all you're going to do is come on here and tell me that I'm ruining my life and that I suffer from destructive traits, then you can take your advice somewhere else, because I don't need it.

    jojo

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    Anyway, this seems to be a biased forum for this type of discussion. "Shunning" does have it's place, and it is not unloving.

    Speaking of bias: if you have some sort of proof beyong your own bias, please share it. Otherwise, you have a counter-opinion but nothing more solid for your assessment.

    I have nothing to do with my own brother for similar reasons, I am not one of Jehovah's Witnesses. However, I do it out of personal choice, not by edict imposed from a 2/3 majority of a tiny group of men located in New York.

    I invite you to discuss the Jehovah's Witnesses shunning policy with me. I left voluntarily because (1) I disagree with their doctrines, (2) I disagree with their hypocrisy and (3) I saw a gross lack of love.

    In every respect aside from meeting attendance and consideration of their weekly feeding trough I still comport myself no differently than an average Witness. With one exception, I have a beard (my JW wife wanted to see what I would look like with one and she likes it). Aside from that gross display of disrespect for the Governing Body's policy, I have committed no gross sin.

    Why am I shunned, Death to the Pixies? My family will not talk to me, they treat me with contempt and pity when they see me, and life-long friends have snipped me from their lives like I was a bothersome vine climbing where it ought not.

    I ask you, why? If you can't answer that intelligibly, I suggest you move on to another thread. What you are giving in response to a very painful (needlessly so) situation is salt to the already gaping wound.

    Confoundedly,
    AuldSoul

  • drew sagan
    drew sagan

    It's the same story told over and over again. I knew sombody who was dying of cancer. The elders found it proper to remove him as a MS not long before he died. They didn't like the fact he went to college. From what I understand he never even got a visit from them, not even a call.

  • kittyeatzjdubs
    kittyeatzjdubs
    "Shunning" does have it's place, and it is not unloving.

    Then here's what I want you to do. Go get yourself disfellowshipped and have your family shun you for over a year. Then come back and tell me again how loving it is.

  • Oroborus21
    Oroborus21

    DTP:

    (you are right about the forum being biased - Welcome anyway)

    I believe that everyone should have the right to choose for themselves whether to associate with another person or not. So I do not think that if a person "shunned" (i.e.chose to not associate with) another person that such conduct makes it automatically hateful. Depending on the reasons the shunning or not choosing to fellowship might be Christian or it might not be - it could be pharisaic.

    It is always surprising to me that some of the same people that castigate the whole practice of shunning are sometimes overheard complaining about the treatment of child molesters or other bad persons within the Org. Certainly, they would agree that if these ones were shunned it would not be an evil?

    So the issue is one of circumstance not principle.

    The problem that I see with the practice of Disfellowshipping, as currently practiced, are the following.

    1. The PROCEDURE or PROCESS is not in harmony with the scriptures. The scriptures, whether the Hebrew-Aramaic (OT) or the Christian Greek (NT) clearly shows that the process was public all the way. Persons were brought before the city gate or in the public square. In the NT, the scriptures say that after personal private attempts to clear up the matter fail to "set it before the whole congregation."

    The reasons for this scriptural procedure were two-part: 1) so that the circumstances could serve as an instructive example to all and 2) because each individual would be responsible for carrying out the ultimate judgment (whether to cast a stone in the OT or to treat the person as a "tax collector" or person of the world in the NT).

    Therefore, it was necessary that the matter be heard by all, in public, so that each could be sure of the judgment and stand in agreement of its righteousness.

    IN CONTRAST, today's procedures within the Org are as you know held in secret tribunals - with the facts of the matter retained and compartmentalized and generally screened from the whole congregaton. In effect the decision to stone or to treat as a worldly person is made by a few persons but the JUDGEMENT is expected to be carried out by all. This is wrong in every sense.

    Simply put the only reasons for such a secretive process iare 1) the fear of litigation in our modern society, 2) fear that the judgment might not be righteous or the correct one and 3) fear that in some cases such as "apostacy" etc. the underlying viewpoints of those being judged might contaminate the whole congregation.

    Again these reasons are wrong in every sense.

    Finally aside from the secrecy, the process is inherently flawed because it is open to too much private interpretation by the tribunal elders and even politicized. We don't have to read too many stories of elder's sons or daughter's getting away with a slap on the wrist for matters that others get crucified for to understand that. Problems like these might be cured by making the process open.

    2. The Second problem with the current Disfellowshipping practice is that it is not a matter of personal choice. The decision has been made for us and we are all expected to just comply with it or risk disfellowshipment ourselves.

    This is not only unscriptural it is overly paternalistic. Each of us as Christians are supposed to develop our own conscience to maturity and to be able to use our own bible-based wisdom and the mind of Christ to decide whether an associate is bad or good for us.

    The bottom line is that instead of just paying lip-sevice to it being supposedly a personal choice - it must be made to be an actual conscience matter and persons who choose to associate with persons who others have chosen not to associate with should not be automatically punished (though some may choose not to associate with them in turn). In order to be a true conscience matter, however, one would need to know the facts and that means correcting the process.

    3. The practice is not EFFECTIVE.

    DFnig is not a deterrent to wrongful conduct - it only pushes it "underground." Those persons, sometimes young people, who say that but for possibly getting DF'd they would choose to engage in sex, get a tattoo, or whatever the choice may be are clearly not manifesting the "correct" view in the first place. (e.g. they don't see the badness or wrongness of premarital sex). Perhaps more importantly the underlying forces and stresses that are upon them are not resolved or mediated by the disfellowshipping policy, thus for many, these underlying forces or stresses eventually overwhelm their concern or the DF consequence and they engage in the proscribed action anyway.

    As for any who get reinstated, we never really know if it is because they have repented (other than not doing the act or acts again) or whether they were motivated to give such an appearance because of being DF'd. Thus its usefullness as a rehabilitative measure is suspect.

    Likewise, it is a strange paradox that we often blame the one disfellowshipped for transgressing because they were "spiritually weak" or had drawn away from the congregation, etc. yet the supposed cure is to put them out of it?! It would seem that the correct action would be to pull such sinners further into the congregation, offering them more love and counsel and fellowship so as to help them correct their actions or life course.

    4. Disfellowshipping is problematic and questionable for some issues such as "apostasy", smoking, etc.

    Again, these things come back to the main points above. Each Christian should hear what the person is promoting or learn what their conduct is (going to another church, celebrating Christmas, etc.) and decide for themselves whether association with such person(s) will be upbuilding or harmful.

    In the area of apostasy especially the practice is often used as means of control and as a means of prior restraint and to silence legitimate criticism. All of which gives fuel to opposers and critics of the Organization - not too mention hampering development and reformative efforts from those who see the need for change and desire such change.

    These are just some areas of concern. I have others but you get the idea.

    Yes, I agree with you that in principle one should be able to choose their associates. But as it stands today, the practice of disfellowshipping does not allow for such true personal choice. Instead it is a tyranny of the mnority and a substitution of the judgment of a few "elders" in place of the exercise of one's sharpened Christian conscience.

    -Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider
    She did not say she made a mistake, but had an affair, which is different than simply just succumbing; to;"manly sin". This is knowing you are doing wrong, potentially playing a part in messing up the pysche of another human being, causing strain in the marriage of another etc..etc.. Sorry, even apart from Christianity, this is bad, abhorrent behavior. She knew she was doing wrong, and she simply could not help it

    And she is now, oh what does it say under the picture...20? 22? So, when this happened, how old could she have been...18? 19? And what does a 18- 19-yearold know about...anything? And how old was the married JW that didn`t see any problem in porking an 18-19-yearold? I bet you he was much older. So where does the responsibility for this homewrecking lay? Gee, I wonder. But more importantly: Who does the judging here? Who decides which sins are so horrible that the shunning-rule should be implemented, in this case? Men do. And it wouldn`t be a problem to me, if this was something people (or in this case: individual JWs) came up with themselves, but this is policy! This is what the leadership of the religion encourages (as shown in the publications). And that`s why it`s wrong. Did you forget: Judge not, so that you yourself shall not be judged? There are very logical reasons why JWs do not say the Lords Prayer...these are some of them.

    This is a destructive personality trait that needs to be corrected. The pattern will repeat

    "Needs to be corrected"...How? By shunning? By washing your hands of your own flesh and blood?

    As someone newly married, I am thinking about Kitties story, and thinking how I would feel if My mate cheated on me

    Well, then that would be a problem between you and your wife, and if the 3rd party was a friend of yours, then it would be his problem too. Other than that, the 3rd party is of less significance in situations like that (of course, unless you live under Jehovahs witness-old testament-laws, that is. Everybody, pick up your stones and drag them outside the city walls, there`s a job that needs to be done!).

    Not shunning D-fd family is not a rare as you think, I can think of others in my own congregation

    No, of course it`s not, but that`s not thanks to the WTS, as was shown by the excellent quotes (someone, don`t remember the name) someone showed you from numerous WTS-publications. Had the JWs been good at following WTS-directions, every DFed person would be shunned, as opposed to now, when some are actually not shunned. When JWs do not shun their family members, this is due to the natural love between a parent and his/her children, a bond that is strong enough to compete with the extreme indoctrination of their cultish religion. And more often than not, this also causes conscience-problems and divided loyalty-issues in the JWs that are supposed to (but just can`t bring themselves to do it) shun family members.

    Anyway, I`m sure you are an "excellent JW".

  • mrsjones5
    mrsjones5
    Sorry to add the more proper view here, but it has to be said.

    Don't lie, you're not sorry about it

  • kittyeatzjdubs
    kittyeatzjdubs
    And how old was the married JW that didn`t see any problem in porking an 18-19-yearold? I bet you he was much older.

    he was 37.

    and yes, i had just turned 18.

    luv, jojo edited to add: lol @ ms. jones

  • Gregor
    Gregor

    One thing I don't believe has been mentioned is the power given the individuals doing the shunning.

    I personally know of families (like mine) with petty differences and rivalries who have seized on a disfellowshipping an opportunity to settle old scores with family members who get DF'd. They go way BEYOND what the WT describes as shunning. They decide they are now free from all bounds of common decency in dealing with that sibling (or whatever) who they never liked anyway. Example: When you're JW mother/father passes away you conspire with the rest of the family JW's to NOT inform your DF'd brother or (?) in another city what has happened. Let them find out months later by accident or maybe when they call you in panic asking why they haven't been able to reach their elderly parent on the phone. "That's because he/she died last May!"..Click. I'm talkin' some MEAN SHIT here folks. But THEY are in good standing and you are the stuff on the bottom of their shoe.

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