we have the truth there is no doubt (page 12)

Hellrider

Really? Then you agree with them on a lot of things.

I disagree with these:

Jehovah is not a trinity. Jesus is God's first creation. God will use the worlds governments to destroy world religion. The Resurrection is the only hope for the majority of the dead.

Basically, I think they are wrong on almost everything. They do emphasise the bodily ressurection though, and that is good. However, they didn`t get this part correct either. It is definitely not certain that the ressurected bodies of the dead (who are now "ressurected" souls, the righteous in heaven, the evil in Hades) will live in eternity on this earth.

Oh, and Jesus is not Michael the archangel.

Super_Becka

Ooo, another thread started by a JW who really shouldn't even be here in the first place!! This has certainly been one of the more entertaining threads I've read since I've been here.

But back on topic - PMJ, I'd like for you to answer some of the questions posed here on this board. A few posts back, a member noted that you hadn't answered a single one of them outright. I got into an argument with another JW poster here a while back because I asked him/her to do the same thing, but I'm gonna try again:

Can you please clearly answer the questions that you are being asked by posters on this board?? I'm not looking to argue, I don't want to read more rhetoric or beating around the bush, I just want some straightforward answers to the questions. Please don't try to twist the question around to make a completely different point or make the WTS look good, we just want some answers, that's all. If you truly believe that the WTS has the Truth and is correct in its teachings, than you should have not trouble answering the questions we're asking you. After all, if it's the Truth, what is there to be afraid of?? If you believe in what you've been taught as a JW, then answering these questions should be no trouble at all.

I've found that when it comes to clearly answering straightforward questions, JWs seem to be completely unable to do that without changing the topic or introducing a new idea, or even resorting to insulting other posters and acting in a very condescending manner, much like a bully. Prove me wrong - answer our questions, no more rhetoric. Show me that a JW can simply answer a question in clear, simple terms without getting angry, offended or avoiding the question in general.

Believe me, you'll get more respect and you'll be taken more seriously if you can do this.

Thanks.

-Becka :)

PS: And let's see if you can do this without calling me anything nasty or trying to belittle me. It won't work, you won't offend me and you won't be doing anything for your reputation on this board. I asked nicely, I hope you can answer nicely.

cheezy

Awwwwwww, PMJ! I leave you alone for few hours and I come back to this. I'm disappointed. I thought a few days ago that you were a real seeker of truth on a scholarly level what with all the 607, 586, 589 jazz. Darlin' - when I was JW I had a relationship with the WTS - not with "Jah" (BTW what is with this "jah" stuff?) Stay or go - but if the elders catch you on here - you are in deep doo - and even "Jah" can't save you. Have a good life - keep an open mind.

Pole

jehovahs wittnesses have the truth there is no doubt about i.people can say what they like ut there is no other group of people who bring glory to jehovah

PMJ,

I could play it nice and pretend that there is some value in your rather blunt statements. Unfortunately, there isn't. Here is why:

1) The existence of Jehovah as an objective entity is so controversial that our opinions on this matter ultimately boil down to inexplicable personal inclinations.

2) I dare say that "bringing glory to Jehovah" is so vague a notion that it cannot constitute unquestionable evidence that a group of people are in the possession of "the Truth", even for religious folks.

3) The value of bringing glory to an entity whose existence is questionable is double-questionable. It's like in probability theory. If you have two dependent events with the probability of occurrance = 0.01 each, then the probability of both of them occurring is 0.01*0.01 = 0.0001.

Oh, and you have to water down the notion of "The Truth", too. Start by examining the Gospel of John, with a special focus on Pilate's famous question to Jesus about the nature of "Truth", which remains unanswered to date.

Pole

Poztate

jehovahs wittnesses have the truth there is no doubt about it

If there is no doubt about it go back to your slime and mire and leave us nasty old apostates alone..

P.S....You will be DA'ed or DF"ed for hanging around with us...Not too bright are you. KID

Flash

Hellrider

Oh, and Jesus is not Michael the archangel.

Possibly not, their argument sounds plausable but I'm not totaly convinced of it...we'll see.

Apostate Kate

PMJ; Since you are defying the counsel of the elders by being here, perhaps you would be willing to take a step of faith.

If you are interested in reading the book by Ray Franz, Crisis of Conscience, I'll send you one. All I ask is, do not accept it if you have no intention of reading it. Private message me where you would like it sent.

If you are not afraid to do honest research this is the book to start with. Then, after you read it, you can give us your opinion. Peace.

zagor

PMJ, I cannot believe your threads attracts this much attention. There are some really smart threads around here that don't get nearly as much attention as your and yet you never give any substantial insight into whatever you are preaching. Is that a nature of the beast where still many here are feeling like they have to prove something to every JW that comes along or what I don't know but would love to find out.
Without wanting to hurt you mate but I cannot but notice that your argumentation is at about the level of secondary school, hence not even a high school, let alone any level of scholarly reasoning. This just tells me that WTBS indoctrination is so strong that many here still feel like they have to prove something to people like you.

Apostate Kate

I also wanted to let you know, when you get the urge to research, a program for the computer called "Sword Search." My beliefs changed when I started to learn what the words in Greek meant in the New Testament. For example; the word "first-born";

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

prwtotokoV prototokos pro-tot-ok'-os

from 4413 and the alternate of 5088; first-born (usually
as noun, literally or figuratively):--firstbegotten(-born).
4413. protos
Search for G4413 in KJVSL

prwtoV protos pro'-tos

contracted superlative of 4253; foremost (in time, place,
order or importance):--before, beginning, best,
chief(-est), first (of all), former.
4253. pro
Search for G4253 in KJVSL

pro pro pro

a primary preposition; "fore", i.e. in front of, prior
(figuratively, superior) to:--above, ago, before, or ever. In
the comparative, it retains the same significations.

Now compare to the word used for a created thing. Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

2937. ktisis
Search for G2937 in KJVSL

ktisiV ktisis ktis'-is

from 2936; original formation (properly, the act; by
implication, the thing, literally or figuratively):--building,
creation, creature, ordinance.
2936. ktizo
Search for G2936 in KJVSL

ktizw ktizo ktid'-zo

probably akin to 2932 (through the idea of
proprietorship of the manufacturer); to fabricate, i.e.
found (form originally):--create, Creator, make

Again; Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

From this simple research I learned that the word ktizo was never used to describe Jesus ever. Prototokos on the other hand was used in that language to show the preemminence of Jesus over all creation. I was pretty surprised also to learn what who and where the word "worship" was written.

This program is so amazing. It has 11 Bible versions, search by word or topics, 14 commentaries, concordence, Greek dictionaries and more.

Love, Kate

Apostate Kate

Zagor you are right. I have enjoyed the kind responses PMJ has recieved. I think that's what kept me reading. He could have been thrashed but you all have really been so patient. From the pages of the New World Translation; he has recieved "undeserved kindness"

Moving on down the road

we have the truth there is no doubt

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