It seems to be that the reasons I'm reading here against socialized healthcare are that a)profit is always best for an economy and a country and b)we should not be obligated to share our wealth with others (which includes paying taxes to assist others). This is the message that I'm getting. Yet didn't I just hear on the radio this week that the spending on defense is up to 420 billion dollars and healthcare is 62 billion? The increase in defense is up 6% but healthcare increases are up only 2%. There are exorbitant amounts offered up around the world as well to assist others with their health care and millions of those dollars are never paid back to this country. That's all fine and dandy if you have the money and your own country is stable and it's citizens happy and healthy, but when you have 20% of the population living without sufficient health care, you have thousands of people still displaced in the state of LA from a storm half a year ago and cities still there still sitting in a mess, it sends a clear message around the world about priorities. In addition I have to wonder that if would be interesting to see a breakdown of how much money is spent on debt collection and legal issues around health care as we know that some of that could very well be linked to tax dollars. How much of the marketing dollars come from the tax coffers within the govt? We already share our wealth with the rest of the world so why not our own people? Why does that seem so hard? What would be the difference between taking that tax dollar we already pay toward external services and instead of diverting it back to the people inside the country to provide services to them? Are they not worth it despite what some of us might deem bad decisions or poor planning in their life? Why are we so ready to jump in and help the rest of the world but feel so righteous in criticizing those less able or fortunate in our own country? Every person is not capable nor able to become CEO of a company. Every person is not able or capable of being a doctor or a lawyer or a teacher. The world needs shopkeepers and gardeners, serving staff and laundry workers, it needs child minders, gas attendants and hotel staff - there may never be a place in the upper echelon of society as much as we want to push that on them, and there is nothing wrong with that. They are people, doing their best, living honest lives and with compassion, respect and dignity - we take that away from them at times by only one visit when they are sick. How sad.
Health Care: A Right or a Privilege?
by prophecor 401 Replies latest members politics
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LDH
but getting back to a point I raised earlier, do you feel people in the USA (or the states where there is 'at will') put up with the system because the laws that make such a thing possible also mean they might also get into a position where they will be able to use people like expendible work-units and make loads of money?"
Yes, to a point, I do agree with you Abaddon. People like Carnegie should have been charged with murder (instead of being seen as a great philanthropist when he was on his deathbed and scared shitless.) There will always be people who mistreat other human beings in their lust for money and power.
That does not represent the majority of the American people, who are neither millionaires nor welfare scum. This society has benefits and detriments, like any other society.
it sends a clear message around the world about priorities.
Or more specifically, about the priorities of the current administration. Not every administration would have handled this situation in the same slip-shod way.
How much of the marketing dollars come from the tax coffers within the govt?
Huh?
Are they not worth it despite what some of us might deem bad decisions or poor planning in their life? Why are we so ready to jump in and help the rest of the world but feel so righteous in criticizing those less able or fortunate in our own country?Every person is not capable nor able to become CEO of a company. Every person is not able or capable of being a doctor or a lawyer or a teacher.
Sammie, EVERY human being is worth being taken care of. Of course, that comes at a cost. Hard dollars. I guess I don't belong to the 'give till you hurt' camp. I give quite a bit of my discretionary income after taxes to charities, but I have two children I have to take care of too!
While not every person in this country is CAPABLE of becoming a doctor or lawyer, every person has the OPPORTUNITY. That is the difference between this country and a lot of others.
It is quite difficult for me to rationalize how immigrants can come to this country (still!) and through hard work and sacrifice, build assets and a safety net.
Perhaps the more appropriate question, is why have some Americans lost the work ethic that would have served them well 100 years ago? Why do some Americans feel that they are entitled to anything and everything while some bust their ass to get by?
If you could design a healthcare system for all people that did not cost me one more cent (in the 30% tax bracket now) I would be all in favor of it, and so would any other normal American. Problem is, you can't. That's why you hear common workers like myself bitching and moaning at the thought of increased taxes to pay for ANYTHING.
Little Toe, are the healthcare providers capitated in your country? Or are they paid on a fee for service basis?
Lisa
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LDH
If company A can hire and fire effectively at whim, it means that person b with a good work record etc.. can be in employ one minute and forced onto state benefits the next. Thus excessive freedom in the private sector ends up costing the public sector money, subsididing private enterprise's freedoms with tax payers money to clear up the mess afterward.
Abaddon,
This is not what happens 90% of the time. Gotta run, I'll fill you in more later.
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LittleToe
Lisa:
It depends which section of the health sector you're asking about.Hospital workers are paid a salary, and specifically the medical staff are paid overtime and on-call rates if they have to be available during the night and there's no night-shift. As a manager I don't get this, so I could work around the clock and not get paid a bean more. Most of us have patient-needs on our minds, rather than pay, though.
There are also a bunch of independant contractors who make up the Primary Care (1st line) services, who are paid for the services they provide.
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ballistic
I haven't been following all of this but this statement...
"yet American families live just one illness or accident away from complete financial collapse" from this link...
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/042700-03.htm
makes me believe in the system we have in Britain, where I feel secure in the knowledge that whether I pay more than I get back in treatment or not, I will never loose everything because of an illness should the worst happen.
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prophecor
welfare scum
Your words are a direct and sad reflection of your ignorance, callouness and stupidity
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LDH
Your words are a direct and sad ;reflection of your ignorance, callouness and stupidity
It's interesting that you choose to see my words as a 'reflection of my ignorance, callousness and stupidity' rather than as an EXAMPLE of the two EXTREMES of our society.
I said most Americans are neither MILLIONAIRES or WELFARE SCUM. Both indicate EXTREMES that I said are NOT indicative of our society.
Try again.
DUH.
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Rabbit
Some more of your wise words LDH:
While not every person in this country is CAPABLE of becoming a doctor or lawyer, every person has the OPPORTUNITY. That is the difference between this country and a lot of others.
How do you figure, for instance, a mentally ill person or an autistic person has the "OPPORTUNITY" when they are not even "CAPABLE." ??
You really have a hard time seeing beneath your nose -- on this subject.
A large number of your so-called "Welfare Scum" are mentally ill or deficient in some way. These people are not capable nor do they have many, if any, skills to get jobs so they can 'pay their way.'
What about the people defrauding public Welfare ? I hear (if it's news worthy) on a regular basis how when they are caught -- they get jail time. Even tho' they then go on to a different kind of public assistance, their punishment helps dissuade other cheaters. That's the answer to that concern of yours.
Taxes. You said you would not spend one more cent for a public health care system. I think you'd come out quite a bit ahead if you could drop your own health insurance, even if your taxes went up a little. The Aussies are doing it for 1.5% already. Europe is already doing it, we are just behind.
Productivity. If working people could survive financially thru a catastrophic or chronic illness -- they can become self-sustaining taxpayers again. If they are 'wiped out financially' they may end up in bankruptcy (leaving unpaid taxes and other debts) or they may lose their houses (a loss to them and the mortgage co.'s) and finally may end up on public assistance in some way.
This happens everyday in the US ! How -- is this possibly an intelligent or humane thing to do to people ?
It IS avoidable !! Need an example or two ? A precedent ? Simply look at the all the major English speaking countries in the world, Canada, the UK, Australia, then, look at Europe ! Only the US is the 'odd man out'...on this issue.
Did you notice, too, that none of these countries are social communists ? Unfortunately, many US folks somehow equate socialised health care with tried and failed communism.
Rabbit
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LittleToe
Hey guys, play fair. Lisa was clearly using extreme examples to make her point.
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LDH
Thanks LT...did I ever tell you how handsome you are?
Rabbit says:
A large number of your so-called "Welfare Scum" are mentally ill or deficient in some way. These people are not capable nor do they have many, if any, skills to get jobs so they can 'pay their way.'
Of course this is not my belief. Get real.
What about the people defrauding public Welfare ? I hear;(if it's news worthy) on a regular basis how when they are caught -- they get jail time.
Let's hope Kenneth Lay and his cronies get the same jail time for defrauding hardworking American families out of their retirement savings over at Enron. But I won't hold my breath.
You said you would not spend one more cent for a public health care system. I think you'd come out quite a bit ahead if you could drop your own health insurance, even if your taxes went up a little. The Aussies are doing it for 1.5% already. Europe is already doing it, we are just behind.
I would not be averse to this, again, I haven't seen a proposal that could do this. I also don't trust the money managers in the government. That is what it comes down to, they run an organization very top-heavy. Look at what is happening to socialized retirement in this country. Who can we trust to manage the health care system? What happens when that is bankrupt and all of the health insurance companies have been put out of business?
If working people could survive financially thru a catastrophic or chronic illness -- they can become self-sustaining taxpayers again. If they are 'wiped out financially' they may end up in bankruptcy (leaving unpaid taxes and other debts) or they may lose their houses (a loss to them and the mortgage co.'s) and finally may end up on public assistance in some wa
I do believe this wholeheartedly. Which is the reason I signed up for supplemental benefits at work today. This is a policy that pays me cash when I have health issues. Yes, it's another $20 out of every paycheck. However, it pays me cash money in the event of an accident or disability. Money that can be used to pay co-pays, or for groceries, or whatever.
So again, I am choosing to protect myself by planning ahead. Should I have to bail out those that choose not to? Should I feel sorry for the person who chooses not to pay the $20 per pay period, when their time comes (because we all know it will)? I don't think so.
I would prefer that supplemental benefits somehow become mandatory on a graded scale, with employer contributions. I have heard talk of employers making people opt-OUT of retirement plans rather than opt-IN, which increases participation and gives the employee a security blanket.
Rather than get involved in the everyday health insurance business, I would prefer a 'disaster plan' underwritten by a small (and I emphasize SMALL) tax. This would allow the real working class to get back on their feet.
Lisa
AFLAC Class
(Did anyone catch the interview yesterday on the History channel with the president of The Hartford? He spoke about the importance the role of the property/casualty insurer plays today in our 'new world' with terrorism strikes. If there were no insurance on the buildings that got targeted by the terrorists, do you know who would be picking up the tab? Most likely you and I. Insurance spreads risk. That's just the bottom line.) Do you think the government should get in the property and casualty business too, because some choose not to insure their assets?