Health Care: A Right or a Privilege?

by prophecor 401 Replies latest members politics

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Terry

    You are trusting the people who take your money to handle it properly, invest it and have it ready when you need it.

    A statement of the bleeding obvious. You do this buying any service, whether private or public. And private service lose efficiency through profiteering (just say now that the US medical profession is not engaged in massive profiteering and we'll know how balanced your opinion is, LOL) as well as through corruption and inefficiency.

    And will you tell us now that private corporations are free of corruption and inefficiency too? LOL

    The political body is composed of persons who are not trustworthy except in their speeches and promises.

    What, like boards of directors? You are a funny man!

    I find your protests naive in the extreme.

    And as is normal with your empty rhetoric, is is you SAYING this rather than actually demonstrating this. How unconvincing.

    Also, all your animadversions demonstrate the weakness of your foundational belief system.

    Oh please, like you did find yours on talk radio? You even make foolish statements like "You can learn a great deal about society by studying man; but, you cannot learn anything about man by studying society." which a child can see are wrong. But a child and a libertarian without social responsibility are very similar creatures.

  • Eyebrow2
    Eyebrow2

    Eyebrow2
    So does this mean a company should hire anyone that wants a job, whether they are deserving (as in qualified) or not?


    No, but it means after a certain period of time in which a worker has proved their worth, they qualify for employment protection. If the company wishes to stop employing them for financial reasons, then a fair settlement to the person being discharged should be part of the financial consideration the company has to make when deciding whether retaining or discharging staff is the best option. Without this financial responsibility. the companies decisions end up costing the public purse, effectively subsidising a private company with public money.


    Abaddon

    K, thanks for clarifying what you meant.

    I do believe in some company loyalty, yes. But why should a company be forced to hold on to an employee if they just rest on their laurels and STOP being a good employee? I am concerned more with employees that refuse to update their skills when the company provides training for it. For example, employees that refuse to learn a new computer program and insist on doing things the old way because that is the way it was done in the past? I think it is an exception rather than the rule, but I have worked with a couple people like this before. I think the company has the right to say "You need to work under our guildelines, or you don't work here."

    I used to be a Teamster, back in the mid early to mid 90s. I saw more union employees abuse their protection than I ever saw a manager take advantage of an employee. There was one employee that had been there for over 10 years. He was out for about 2 years on an employment related disability. When he came back (they held his position, as they rightly should have) there had been a few policy changes on how things were done. For instance, no smoking in doors. He was reminded nicely the first 2 weeks, but still openly smoked in the break room blatantly. Also, he refused to cooperate with a few other small policy changes the line. He was a miserable bastard to work with as well.

    Anyway...the managers allowed themselves to be intimated by this guy because he was always in their face about the union. He made the union look bad, was a lousy worker, and should have been fired. But no, he had his "protection".

    (I am not trying to talk bad about unions per say, this is just the example I thought of when you mentioned employment protection.)

    I guess what scares me about giving blanket employment protection is that there are some that will stop striving to do the best job that they can. I wouldn't want anyone to feel like they are going to lose their job at any giving minute, but if they are not working under reasonable guildelines that the company has, no matter how long they have been there, then they don't deserve to work there.

    Of course, one can argue what is reasonable guidelines. I have worked for companies that have done a great job of putting together job descriptions and guidelines as to what they expect from their employees and what the employees can expect from the company. I have also worked for companies that change those guidelines on a whim.

    I do have one more question for you:

    Without this financial responsibility. the companies decisions end up costing the public purse, effectively subsidising a private company with public money.

    when you say costing the public purse...are you referring to unemployment insurance or another similiar program? I am not sure how that would be subsidising a private company if the employee is no longer there? I was wondering if you could explain what you meant?

    Thanks.

  • Eyebrow2
    Eyebrow2

    Flying high

    , I can't believe anyone would think those you're speaking of need defending

    Hey, if one group can defend what they feel are insults, then so can the other side. That is all I am saying.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow
    Flying high
    , I can't believe anyone would think those you're speaking of need defending
    Hey, if one group can defend what they feel are insults, then so can the other side. That is all I am saying.

    Eyebrow, I read over this entire thread last night, again. I don't see where you are included among the people I spoke of. You didn't say thing kind of things I mentioned. All you have to do is to read over this thread again and you will figure out what kind of comments I am referring to. Hopefully you will never find yourself in the position of working with no insurance; and becoming the brunt of the presumptuous, judgmental, bigoted views posed by a minority on this thread. Strong, descriptive words, yes, but accurate all the same.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Eyebrow

    But why should a company be forced to hold on to an employee if they just rest on their laurels and STOP being a good employee?

    Nothing I've ever said or supported, unless the employee has fallen ill whilst in the employ of a company. As the company has used this person to make profit when they were able, it is fitting they should bear some of the responsibility of caring for sick empoyees in return.

    when you say costing the public purse...are you referring to unemployment insurance or another similiar program? I am not sure how that would be subsidising a private company if the employee is no longer there? I was wondering if you could explain what you meant?

    If company A can hire and fire effectively at whim, it means that person b with a good work record etc.. can be in employ one minute and forced onto state benefits the next. Thus excessive freedom in the private sector ends up costing the public sector money, subsididing private enterprise's freedoms with tax payers money to clear up the mess afterward.

  • Eyebrow2
    Eyebrow2
    If company A can hire and fire effectively at whim, it means that person b with a good work record etc.. can be in employ one minute and forced onto state benefits the next. Thus excessive freedom in the private sector ends up costing the public sector money, subsididing private enterprise's freedoms with tax payers money to clear up the mess afterward.

    I do agree that sometimes good employees do end up in the unemployment line. However, I don't think a company being able to decide, within reason, who works for them is an excessive freedom. Of course, maybe it all comes down to what is consider a whim or not? If an employer has his hands bound too tightly, he won't be free to hire new employees if he has to be stuck with poor performing ones.

    Flyinghigh...I have been uninsured and underemployed. I grew up with no insurance, and didn't have insurance for most of my adult life until a few years ago, but we did have a gap for a whole year when we moved to TX because my husband worked for an out of state employer and their plan was $250 a WEEK. I passed on that, and he sought and found another job that has better insurance. And yes, I do feel lucky about that.

    By the way...this has been a great thread. It is good to see a thread with passion, even though there are so many different views, even heated. A thread about something substantial. My hats off to everyone on both sides.

  • LDH
    LDH
    One thing to keep in mind: we don't care if affordable healthcare, for every US citizen, is government run or if the government simply ensures a universal, affordable program is brought to fruition. It's ridiculous for anyone commenting here to think we want them personally to pay for all of it. Everyone who is able to work should pay for it.



    How, pray tell? By definition the 'working poor' are POOR. DUH!!! That is the crux of the issue. Even Jesus said the poor would always be with us. Whether poor by legitimate circumstances or poor by repeated bad choices, they are POOR!!!!! It's too bad you see that as a statement of judgement and not of fact!

    Little Toe, I've been at-will all my life and I've always had amazing benefits. The two are not mutually exclusive. Typically only higher paid workers are in a position to negotiate perks, benefits, buy-outs, etc. The lower wage scale occupations have a 'set' of benefits from which there is not much variance. Incentive, if you ask me, to move up the corporate ladder.

    Abaddon, the reason I left for-profit was the last three years of my employment. I watched the company stock double and then split, I watched bonuses get slashed in the meantime (except for the executive management team). A large incentive for me to stay was the vesting schedule of my 401K. Company matched first 3% then an additional 3% match based on company performance. That is a total of 12% pre-tax if you put in the full 6% of your own salary, which I did. Then there was a graded vesting schedule based on tenure with the company. The took away the additional 3% match which meant they were only giving 3%. Shameful. Especially when I was one of the team working on the financial turnaround for the Broker community. I have letters from external clients who refused to do business with this company except through me. Anyhow, I went to the non-profit side and my benefits INCREASED as well as my position (I now report to the CEO!), my salary, etc. I'm matched and immediately vested. If I left tomorrow, I would take everything I put in, plus everything my employer put in, to my 401K. That is what I call FAIR.

    So, that is one example of a company about whom I feel very strongly is not making an effort to help their 30,000 employees on the long term basis. The reason that is so bothersome is that most of the employees are considered 'entry level' so not making high wages. I tried to help many single moms work their budgets during open enrollment so that they were paying daycare and medical expenses on a pre-tax basis. I might as well put on an African mask and chant OOGA-BOOGA for all they understood.

    Lisa

    Bloomberg Class

  • stillconcerned
    stillconcerned

    Toe-

    At-will cuts both ways..

    Stateside, the states with 'at-will' as an employment LEGAL philosophy are, almost without exception, more prosperous states, business-wise. In most news reports it's called 'right to work' ; i.e. the right to negotiate your own deal with your own employer based on your wants and desires and your employer's wants and desires.

    Contracts can still be entered into, and regularly ARE, for a specific term or project, but the presumption is you have the right to walk if you get a better deal elsewhere, and your employer can let you go is he/she/it doesn't need you or doesn't think you are doing your job.

    Part and parcel with the same philosophy, 'at will' states take a dim view of 'non-compete' agreements, construing them VERY narrowly, if allowed at all.

    I practiced employment law in two states, before venturing on my present 'gig' in '94. In my experience, the states practicing 'at will' employment had a more fair overall scheme/philosophy of law. It seems to work well in 'can-do' states....

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Eyebrow

    However, I don't think a company being able to decide, within reason, who works for them is an excessive freedom. Of course, maybe it all comes down to what is consider a whim or not? If an employer has his hands bound too tightly, he won't be free to hire new employees if he has to be stuck with poor performing ones.

    Eyebrow, for the umpteenth time, we are not talking about poor performing employees. We are talking about protecting good employees who have worked for a company for some years. If the company decides (for reasons of profitability - like they suddenly can get Umpaloompas to do the work for half the money) that they no longer want to emply that person, part of the calculation of profitability they should have to make is paying compensation to the employee, so that a company cannot discharge people as it suits them and thus cost the public purse money.

    LDH

    How, pray tell? By definition the 'working poor' are POOR. DUH!!! That is the crux of the issue. Even Jesus said the poor would always be with us. Whether poor by legitimate circumstances or poor by repeated bad choices, they are POOR!!!!! It's too bad you see that as a statement of judgement and not of fact!

    LDH honey, working poor pay for their health care in most of Europe; America isn't that $ucking special you know, the only reason it doesn't work in the USA is lack of political will, probably due to the massive profits (and thus election-time funding) coming in from the medical industry.

    You thus far not really handled the fact that there are two ways of doing it; both have problems (inefficiency, corruption and profiteering), but the only one that can really be eliminated as distinct from minimalised in either the private sector of public sector is PROFIT, as I have outlined in this thread.

    In many parts of Europe we have public health, available for all, paid for by all in work. It has problems, but then so does the US health system.

    I can understand you being satisfied with the improvements you've made in your working conditions, but getting back to a point I raised earlier, do you feel people in the USA (or the states where there is 'at will') put up with the system because the laws that make such a thing possible also mean they might also get into a position where they will be able to use people like expendible work-units and make loads of money?"

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24
    the only reason it doesn't work in the USA is lack of political will, probably due to the massive profits (and thus election-time funding) coming in from the medical industry

    Great response Abaddon. ALL working people pay into the funds for socialized health care. Apparently Michael Moore is working on a project now about the USA style of healthcare - should be enlightening for people around the world to watch when it comes out. sw

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