by BluesBrother 307 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • doofdaddy

    All I can say to David 2002 is if the "friends" catch you posting here, you will be a permanent resident.

    Do you lie about posting on apostate sites?

    By their fruits you will know them....

  • David2002


    Why did the early Christian congregation grow so fast - and why is the Watchtower suffering a malaise? The Bible gives you a clue at Acts 6:7: "So the word of God spread" ; (NIV) ; And what's the context leading up to this statement? ; The apostles decided to have congregation feed indigent widows - food service! So, why did Christianity spread so fast? ; BECAUSE THE PEOPLE PERCEIVED THAT SOMEBODY CARED ABOUT THEM! This is the very opposite of the trend the Watchtower is following today - they denigrate charity and good works in favor of a increasingly sterile "ministry", often of magazine peddling. ; They lie to each other about "preaching because of love of neighbor" - while making jokes about whose house they would like once all the wicked non-Witnesses are slaughtered at Armageddon - and "put in their time" so that Brother Elder won't come visiting to harass them about it. When James spoke about faith without works, the context reveals that he was thinking about charity towards "orphans and widows" - not "preaching"

    Witnesses are considering to be one fastest growing groups in the world, although it has slowed down. And it is for the love of neighbors that we preach the good news. It hurts me to hear say brutal lies about Witnesses. What motivates Witness to preach is the love they have for their neighbors as well as their strong faith. Never once in my life have I heard Witnesses making jokes of others!!! We urge all to repent and come to Jehovah through Christ. Witneses want as many people as possible to repent (compare 2 Peter 3:9, 15) And you are wrong when you say Witnesses are not a charitable organization. As I mentioned earlier to another poster, this year I got several news alerts regarding Witnesses helping others, such as those working in the Katrina recovery effort. So even the secular press has testified about the Witnesses good works.

    Early Christians didn't need to be badgered or "reminded" about "getting their time in".; People naturally gravitated towards Christians because they saw how Christians cared for one another, in the midst of a cruel empire. ; Little preaching was necessary - ask yourself why other religions have growth rates equal to - or better than - Jehovah's Witnesses. ; In large measure, ; it may reflect that other churches take better care of their parisioners. Why does the Society endlessly nag the friends about college education - but never offer their own college to help preserve their own subculture?

    We know from the Bible that early Christians were active in preaching. There is a record of the time element recorded in the Scriptures. The apostle Paul said he preached day and night, trying to persuading people to believe. The record states Christian preached every day. True, there is nothing in the Bible that mentions an actual time slip. But what is so hard about taking a few minutes to record a time sheet? (Greg Stafford in his book "Three Dissertations on the Teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses includes a copy of WT letter which states that if one does not want to record their time they do not have to. They can still submit a report sheet stating they participated preaching). Again, I have to emphasize, that other churches count their members differently, and it is Non-Witnesses themselves that say this. Catholics count baptized babies in their membership rolls, even after they left the church. Why do you think there are many reports that allude to the fact that a country which is supposedely 80% Catholic, has only an 15% church attendance rate? In an earlier post included a link on an article on the Mormon Church which called its numbers a myth. The articles mentioned that Witnesses are growing much faster. The Baptist growth in the US is slowing down, according to one article (The Dallas Morning News, "Southern Baptists' Growth Stalling" 6/16/2005) And their numbers, at least according to one Ex-Baptist friend, include people that rarely attend services. Do you really believe that other churches take better care of their parishioners? Well, I remember in the late 1980's. There was a devasting hurricane in Florida. Witnesses immediately went over and helped the brothers, as well as others, deliver food, provisions, and even re-built some homes. One pastor highly commended the Witnesses, but lamented and said "where are the other churches". A friend and co-worker of mine is a Baptist. She has family members that are Witneses and has study with from time to time. In the early 1990's she was living in CA, and even though she did not agree with everything the Witnesses taught, she attended the Witness meeting for Bible instruction. Why? She said, since she was black, she was badly mistreated in the Baptist church near her area. She is still not a Witness (she attends a Baptist church in NY), but her story is very revealing. I can go on and on... But the point I am making is that the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses is based on love. Those individuals that have hate in their and are hostile will eventually leave the congregation and spread hatred and lies about us.

    College - I don't know why some many posters make it sound as if attending college is condenmed by the WTS. Some make it appear as if it is a disfellowshipping offence. True, it is not encouraged; yet it is not forbidden. In the end, whether or not one decides to attend is a personal decision. I earned my BA and MS. The congregations I attended would sometimes rent a dance hall each time a large number of Witneses graduated. These included junior high, high school, and college graduates. Most Witnesses actually supported my decision to attend. Only one elder, while saying it was my decision, told me to be careful not to be entrapped by human philosophy or the teaching of evolution, which is strong emphasized in college. Even some Ex-Witnesses had admitted they went to college with very little problems. James Penton and Gary Botting have admitted to this. Also, Witness apologist, Firpo Carr, even attended a seminary while he was active as a Witness. Federick Franz, in his biography, spoke well of his college professors. And the WT and Awake! magazine quote from many professors and university studies. I never felt nag by WTS. I felt there was enough leeway given for me to make up my own mind whether or not to pursue a univesity degree. Other Witnesses I know apparently felt the same.

    Child sexual abuse? ; Is the Catholic church really worse? ; Catholic leaders have formally and officially apologized for events like these - when has the Society apologized for this - OR ANYTHING? Have they ever apologized for any of their false prophecies?

    Why is that some want to paint the Witnesses in the worst light possible? Child sexual abuse. Do you really believe that Witnesses tolerate it? In Britian, a Witness official said that he was sorry for what happened to 2 sisters that were abused. A friend of my from the UK said that the entire elder body was removed for not following the WTS instructions. Clearly in that case there were 2 witnesses speaking up. In a case in Boston, involving a boy that was abused, a lawyer representing the WTS society publicly stated he was sorry about what happened. The WTS society won the case, but it was still tragic. The media office of the WTS released states and sound bytes stating child abuse is abhorrent. And while they believe in the biblical "2 witness rule", parents and guardian can report the problem to the proper authorities, and even elders may encourage them to do so. In a CA case, one elder testified on behalf of a teenage girl that accused a Witness of molesting her. (The man, however, was acquitted.) In congregation a my sister attended, a father had abused his daughter. He, of course, was expelled. It was reported to the police, but as far as I know, he never went to jail, but was required to get therapy from some government sponsored social services group. (This was in the late 1980's. Now, I believe, in the state of NY he would face at least 5 yrs. jail time.) I also remember a case in NJ. My uncle attended a congregation in which a young pioneer sister (she was 22, but looked younger). She was suppose to be giving Bible lessons to a 14 year boy. But she gave more than Bible lessons.... She was expelled. The parents reported her to the authorities. The judge in case threw it out (according to what I was told, he in effect said, that the boy dreams came true and it was normal for teenage boys to have sex with young women.) This was around 1988. She would have faced some jail time if it happen in the 1990's. Now, I understand the WTS point of view of the "2 witness rule". In fact, there are some court cases that are lost because there was not enough evidence to convict, because there was only 1 witness. But I personally think all accusations should be reported to the authorities (not just the states that require it - JWs can accept as a second witness DNA evidence). On the other hand, I disagree with those who try to paint the WTS in a worse light than the Catholic Church, and other churches. The Catholic church had priests that confessed that they were child molesters; they knew that individual priests had numerous acccusers; and yet they just gave them some therapy and moved to another parish. They were not removed from the priesthood since they believe a priest is an eternal convocation. In the 1990's there were numerous articles in Spanish newspapers about pastors abusing girls. Even when the parishioners knew what was happening, it was kept quiet. Tony Leyva, a pentecostal minister, had confessed several times that he had abused boys. Church members would just pray for him, believing that he repented. Instead he abused several hundred boys, along with other associated pastors. But Jehovah's Witnesses will expelled, or immediately remove from a teaching position, anyone who has sexual abused a child. Jehovah's Witnesses were the first Christian religious group to deny any man the role of being an elder if he sexually abused a child. Witnesses throughout the years, especially since the late 1970s, have taken a proactive approach by writing articles regarding child abuse, thus education Christians and the public at large regarding the problem. They are probably the only ones that expel unrepentant child abusers from their congregations. So, I completely disagree, with those who try to make the Witnesses look worse than the churches or no different than other churches. Alot of opposers love doing that. We hear from one Ex-Witness that WT leaders wanted to compromise with the Nazis (Not true. After Penton wrote his first anti-Witness book, in which he claimed the Rutherford wanted to compromise with the Nazis, several historians wrote their own papers and books giving a different view. Probably taken aback that many historians did not agree with his view, he wrote a second book. According to one reviewer, he does not do a good job in his book, and sounds more like someone who a vendetta against the Witnesses. Some say the Witnesses are really rascists; not true again. (Even the author of "The Truth Book", Joy Castro, said that want thing she liked about the Witnesses was the racial harmony they promoted.)

    The cold hearted old men in charge are going in the wrong direction, ; like King Rehoboam

    Dejavu. Your comment reminds of the what some apostates were saying of the WTS in the early 1980's. I can only remind to read Hebrews 13:17 and 2Peter 2:10-13. Which text will apply to you?


  • David2002


    David2002, I would love to discuss the preaching work with you in detail. ; If you'd like to discuss it as well please start a new thread specifically for that purpose.
    I did not mean to ignore, but was busy replying to other post. If you want to go ahead and start the topic (perhaps starting with some questions), and I will respond next year. I will be busy in the next 3-4 days. So we can start the topic maybe next week. Just name it "Preaching Work", so that I can find it easily.

    - David2002

  • Apostanator


    The Witnesses do tolerate child sexual abuse ! The elders have a Fiduciary responsibility to protect the flock they are watching over. However,,it's hush hush when they are told of abuse that has taken place! Don't tell anyone that brother so&so is a child molester. What the hell is this code of silence? Why is it that a child molester can be sitting right next to you at a meeting and you wouldn't know about it until you find out later that he molested one of your children? Is that protecting the flock? Where in the bible does it say to keep quiet about child molesters in our midst? I am so glad that I am done with that Disgusting organization !!!! They don't even admit there is a problem.

    My 2 Cents worth

  • quango

    I have to concur with David2002 on this one. I've been a congregation secretary in 2 congregations and I personally believe the brothers and sisters substantially under report their ministry. I suspect the real number of hours spent witnessing is probably at least double the reported figure.

    To illustrate: an elderly brother in my congregation is in the street work every day , talking to others about the bible. He must do well over 100 per hours per month. His report is 5 hours per month - he simply refuses to count time spent informal witnessing.

    Hardly any family head in our congregation books the 4 hours they are allowed to report for family studies. We must have 20 family studies - do the maths yourself!

    The comments from various posters on JWD that they "pad" or lie about their reports probably tells more about them than the average genuine witness , who is basically honest. It would be impossible to lie on a report slip on a regular basis - the book study overseer would query an inflated figure.

  • ballistic

    quango, if what you say is correct, it is even more frightening how many hours are wasted by the organisation. That's all I can say, what a waste!!!

  • quango

    How is it a "waste" talking to others about the bible? How is it a "waste" telling them about the Kingdom , about Jesus & his father? Was Jesus' efforts or those of the apostles a "waste" of time? ( Should there be an apostrophe after Jesus ?!)

    All who have shared in the ministry have had members of other churches telling them that they wish their members had the same zeal or that they themselves had the "guts" to preach. It is an obligation on all Christians to preach and become "fishers of men".

  • ballistic


    Total volunteer hours spent in public Bible educational work

    1.3 billion

    1.3 billion hours, and you are saying this is under-reported... and the growth is so low it does not even cover natural growth of the JW population through bringing up children! Don't you think they would have done better if they had put 1.3 billion hours into caring for the flock and their families?

  • quango

    However you try to calculate it , a 1.3% increase on a base of 6 million is pretty good - most organisations and virtually all religions would gag for that kind of return. Where you & I live , the Anglican church and most other religions are in free-fall , yet in the UK we had a 1% increase.

    As you know , we do spend much time in caring for our families - I'm playing football (soccer for the benefit of our friends across the pond) with my kids this afternoon. I've lost count of the time I spend on congregation activities , visiting the brothers , caring for the flock. It doesn't absolve me for the need to share the bibles message with others.

    Don't forget - ministry has another purpose as well. It draws the family & the brothers together - quality time , whether spent in the field or in the doughnut shop or back at a brothers' home afterward. I'm sorry so many are negative on this forum - we have a vibrant , loving , close congregation who love the service. The experience of most witnesses is the same - very few would regard time spent in ministry as a waste , whatever the tangible results.

  • ballistic

    ok quango, I can only speak of my own experience. If you're an elder, you obviously do put a lot of time in and maybe get results. The experience of many here is there is an "in" crowd who benefit from this and the down-trodden, who never get visits from anyone even when they're in hospital. I've seen elderly who spent their whole life in the thick of the organisation only to get abandoned in later life. I think the whole "counting time" culture is counter productive to showing love for ordinary people.

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