SERVICE REPORT 2005 : WATCHTOWER FEB 1ST 2006

by BluesBrother 307 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    1. Why just the NT teaching on paradise?

    Because all Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be Christians. In fact, the organization claims to be the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. Therefore, it is truly immaterial what the Jews taught on the matter, since they weren't Christians.

    So I would like to be taught from the Christian Greek Scriptures what a Christian should believe about paradise. Mind you, I am also specifically interested in the word "paradise" as used by Jesus, Paul, and John. What did the term "paradise" refer to, according to the Christian Greek Scriptures?

    2. If I cite a text from the NT that is actually a quote from the OT will you accept as truth?

    Certainly. "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness..." How else would the man of God ever hope to be "fully competent, completely equipped for every good work?" Our being "adequately qualified" does not issue from us (or an elder body, or the Governing Body) but "issues from God." And it is his spirit that makes us alive, if we are Christians. (1 Timothy 3:16,17; 2 Corinthians 2:14-3:6)

    Of course, you won't find a Scripture in the NT that discusses paradise and quotes from the OT. But you are welcome to look. There are only three occurences in the NT of the word. I wonder if you have ever researched them out. I look forward to the results of your study. Maybe you can change my mind, I am certainly opne to the idea. Between you and I (and everyone else who reads this), I wish they had the truth. I just can't find Scriptural basis for what they teach, but I can find plenty to directly contradict it.

    3. Why do you deny that Witnesses do not preach in Jesus Christ name? ... After all, we follow Jesus sample.

    I said they do not preach "in his name." I wasn;t speaking to motivations, I am no reader of hearts. But from what I have seen and heard, I would say Christ's name is very low on the list of motives for Jehovah's Witnesses to go preaching. I think if you think on it a moment, you will know I speak truth about that.

    Paul went to Gentiles who knew nothing of Jehovah. Whose name did he bear? Who was he persecuted because of? Think on it, please.

    I know you believe you do what Jesus did. Have you never read:

    Luke 10:5-7 — Wherever YOU enter into a house say first, ‘May this house have peace.’ And if a friend of peace is there, YOUR peace will rest upon him. But if there is not, it will turn back to YOU. So stay in that house, eating and drinking the things they provide, for the worker is worthy of his wages. Do not be transferring from house to house.

    He DID NOT EVER send them house to house. Despite what the WTS has preached at you, the term "house to house" appears only three times in the NT. Once where Jesus told them not to do it, once where it could be understood they were preaching using that method, and once where Paul was speaking specifically to the older men of Ephesus.

    In every town Paul and the other early disciples entered, they went immediately to the Synagogues and Temples. Then into the marketplaces. In fact, there are 24 references in the NT to preaching and teaching in either Synagogues or Temples. There are quite a few other public preaching mentions as well, including both of the ones that mention the term "house to house."

    You don't follow Jesus example in your ministry. There is not one account of him knocking on one door after another and handing out pamphlets or books he had produced to tell the message for him.

    4. Who truly believe that Jesus is really the Son of God?

    More people than you will ever encounter from inside your fishbowl.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    David;

    What I am saying is that the Witnesses only count those preachers/publishers that report their figures. But the figures of the publishers is always less that those who regularly attend the Kingdom Hall meetings.

    This is a circular argument. You are saying that because the dubs believe that salvation is only by works (especially their field service reports) and the numbers of reporters is less than the meeting attenders, therfore the WT figures are somehow more valid than the attendance figs for churches who don't catalog their works.

    Hmmmmm

    Trouble is that for a dub, you're only as good as your last report!

  • Blueblades
    Blueblades

    Bottom line is figures don't lie but liars figure. It is not about the numbers it is about what is in the heart. The Watchtower Society is heartless.

  • David2002
    David2002

    AuldSold,

    This is my understanding of the use of paradise in the occurrences in the NT:

    1. Luke 23:42, 43: "Then he said: 'Jesus, remember me when come into your kingdom.' I promise you this right now,' he answered, 'you will be with me in Paradise." (21st Century New Testament - see also NWT, Emphasized Bible, Lamsa (footnote in later editions, Original Sacred Name Bible, New Simplified Bible). As you probably already know, other translations render this text differently, such as "Yes! I promise you will be with me today in Gan-Eden [paradise] (Jewish New Testament). Many translators and commentors believe Jesus was promising the repentant thief that he would be with him in a heavenly paradise that very day. A minority of commentors (including of course the Watchtower), believe that Jesus was alluding to a future paradise. I believe that the minority is are correct. True, the Bible clearly refers to a heavenly paradise in Rev. 2:7, specifically called the "paradise OF God". And in 2 Cor.12:1-7, the apostle Paul alludes to vision he had of a third heaven in which he also call paradise. This vision appear to be similar to the prophets and the apostle John who saw the heavenly throne. So the apostle Paul appears to be referring to the heavenly paradise. But the passage of Luke 23:42-43 is clearly, I believe, referring to the promise of the future earthly paradise. The Jewish New Testament using the term Gan Eden which is the garden of Eden, or reminds of the original paradise on earth, where Adam and Eve once lived. In verse 42 the verse, the thief is asking Jesus to remember him "when he comes in the Kingdom". That is something that was to happen in the future. Also, everyone knows that Jesus was dead in grave for 3 days, and did not ascend back into the heavens until later. (Luke 9:22; Acts 2:23-35; John 20:17) Even after the resurrection, the apostles thought that Jesus was going to establish the kingdom on earth immediately (compare Acts 1:6). This shows the mindset of the early apostles and first century believers. They were aware of the OT prophecies regarding the kingdom. Jesus himself alluded to the promise of the earthly paradise in Matt. 5:5. He also talk about the New System of Things to come, or the New Age or New World to come. Christians, it appears, after receiving the holy spirit, understood more clearly that there were to destinies for those saved. The Christians, for instance, alluded to promise of the "new earth" and "new heavens", which can only be understood in light of what the OT teaches. Referring to the new earth and new heavens the apostle Peter wrote that it was "based on His [God's] promise." So based on what they knew from the Hebrew Scriptures they knew there was going to be a paradise earth, and a heavenly hope in which Rev. 2:7 specifically called the "paradise of God". The apostle Paul spoke of the "world to come" (Christian Standard Bible) or the "inhabited earth soon to come" in Hebrew 2:5. (21st Century New Testament) In Ephesians he talks about the kingdom as an "administration" that will bring together in Christ the "the things in the heavens and the things on the earth." Acts 3:21-26 refers to the promise regarding the "restoration of all things" and how the "familes of the earth" will be blessed. Now the apostles understood more clearly that takeover by God's Kingdom in the hands of Christ was still in the future. Note how they alluded to OT prophecies. And we know the OT talked about a new heavens, and a new earth, about the meek inheriting the earth forever, about the Kingdom filling the earth, and about holy ones ruling with the Son of Man. Rev. 5:10 says that there will be kings ruling who will "over the earth". (compare Rev. 20:4-6). It's obvious that those who will be ruling as kings must have subjects. Those subjects will be the meek that live on paradise earth forever, including the thief that asked Jesus to remember him when he comes in the Kingdom. The rulers will be those who will live in the "paradise of God", ruling in the heavenly Mount Zion.

    2. Christians faith on the new earth and the new heavens was based on the OT. That is what they referred to it as God's "promise". They new what the OT taught about the "Kingdom of God", which was what Jesus preached about. And they quoted from it when referring to God's promises. The OT and the NT compliment each other and are essential in understanding the Word of God.

    3. As Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are following the example of Jesus Christ and most certainly preach in his name. The Witnesses I know that preach are motivated by what Jesus did and what to take part in the commission to "GO and make disciples" (Matt. 28:18-20) We truly believe we are following in the footsteps of Jesus, including making the Father's name known and preaching about the Kingdom (Matt. 4:17, John 17:6, 26; Matt. 6:9; 1 Peter 2:21). Of course the apostle name taught the name of Jesus to the Jews and Gentiles. Jesus was the only way to Jehovah. Using was Jehovah or Yahweh was no longer enough. The apostle Paul taught the Jesus is the "only name GIVEN" for salvation. Jehovah's Witnesses teach that. But remember, even the name Jesus means "Salvation of Jehovah". Surely the apostle Paul and early Christians must of known what Jesus name meant. (Matt. 1:21). Note that he said the name was GIVEN. That would include the message that Jehovah God so loved the world that he SENT his only-begotten Son. He must therefore, accept Jesus as God's Son and the one sent be be the Savior of the world. (John 3:16, 36; 1 John 4:6-18; Matt. 16:16). That we what we preach, and therefore we in come in Christ name. The apostle Paul, who knew what Jesus taught about God's name, said that God was selecting a "people for his name" and then cited the prophet Joel that many will call upon the name of Jehovah. So true Christian will call about the name of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But they know it will be useless to call upon his name, unless they believe in the name of Jesus.

    Witnesses are aware of Luke 10:5-7 states. The immediate context is referring to the apostles entering a new city or town. They would need a place to stay and have meals. Jesus said they should stay at one house only, not "moving from house house". (Christian Standard Bible). Luke 6:10 says one must stay in a house "until you leave from there". A footnote in the New American Bible says the apostles were to stay as a "guest in the house rather than moving to another offering greater comfort", so as not to offend the householder. Matthew 10:5-12, interestingly, does not mention it, but says the apostles should not preach to the Samaritans or pagans. We know that later Jesus said that good news should be preached to all nations (Matt. 28:19). The early Christian church is said to have been active preaching about Jesus from house to house in Acts 5:42. IIn Acts 20:20, 21 the apostle Paul says he preached from "house to house" or in peoples homes. Some have argued that it was only to the elders he preached to. But verse 21 clearly says he preached to Greeks and Jews urging them to repent towards God and to have faith in Jesus. The apostle Paul was an imitator of Christ, and he said he should follow his example (1 Cor. 11:1) Witnesses like the early Christians preach from house to house as well as in malls, street corners, workplaces, etc. You may believe we are not following the method of Christ (as followed by the apostle Paul), but I strongly disagree. Even many Evangelicals, who sometimes attack the Witnesses for preaching, at the same time say the fellow Evangelicals should imitate the Witness zeal in spreading the word. The truth is the only ones bringing the good news to the world are Jehovah's Christian Witnesses. They are the only true evangelicals (bringers of good news). Tell me something, if the original Christian congregation did not start printing the good news on paper, would we even have a NT today?

    4. I believe that only those that really believe that Jesus is the Son OF God, that Jesus truly has a Father (Lifegiver), are the true Christians. (compare Matt. 16:16; John 10:36; John 5:19; 1 John 4:8-15; John 6:57; Heb. 5:7-9; John 3:16, 36; John 1:14-17; 2 John 3). Sadly many people claim they believe in the Son of God, but they really believe in another Jesus who is not the Son of God. And they continously reject the clear and repeated statements of the Bible that Jesus is the only-begotten Son of God. (John 3:16)

    I truly hope you find my responses helpful.

    David2002

  • David2002
    David2002

    Ozziepost,

    Witnesses do not believe we are saved by our works. That has been mentioned in several WT articles and publications over the years. Only faith in the sacrifice of Jesus will ultimately save us. However, we believe that one who truly believes will have a faith that is active. One who really believes and has faith will be motivate to preach the good news. If one does not believe, then one will not preach. That is why James says that "faith without works is dead" (James 2:17-26; compare with Romans 10:11-18).

    And the point I am trying to make regarding how WT counts its members is simple. Many observers have noted that Witnesses are use a very conversative method of counting members compare to other groups. They only count those that are actively preaching, even though average meeting attendance is higher than the number of publishers. That's all I am saying. Pure and simple.

    - David2002

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    David:
    I won't buy it - the Dubs are a works based group. Imagine if I didn't report (as a dub) how would I be viewed by the self-proclaimed (Jehovah's) organisation? Of course they're works based. You can refer rightly to James as a discussion of faith and works but it doesn't prove the dubs are not guilty of teaching it wrongly.

    You claim:

    If one does not believe, then one will not preach; That is why James ;says that "faith without works is dead"

    I don't "preach" (your word) door to door; are you saying my faith is dead?

    In short, the dubs' organisation has added to scripture by claiming that the works of house-to-house visitation is an indicator of faith in Christ. For that God has promised to judge them

  • quango
    quango

    My wife's uncle (who regards himself as a prominent apostate) told me back in 1980 that JWs would go ex-growth and that apostates would "soon" organise themselves into a evangelising force. No doubt the same claims will be made in another 10 years time , if this system is still around.

    It is often difficult to leave an organisation or relationship without secretly hoping that your ex-employer or ex-wife/husband/boyfriend/girlfriend (delete as appropriate) goes bust or messes up their lives. Sadly , it usually doesn't happen that way.

  • TheListener
    TheListener

    I know that David2002 and AuldSoul are having a theological discussion but I still have a comment on the statistics stuff.

    David 2002 said (highlighting mine):

    But, according to elders and other Witnesses I spoke, the slow in the growth does not mean many are leaving. But there are a brothers that are inactive in preaching service (even though they still attend the meetings regularly). Saturday or Sunday meeting attendance is still robust. But it appears that some brothers have longer working, with jobs demanding more and more of their time, and may not go out preaching as often (although I hear that many continue to preach informal at their jobs. Since informal preaching is not required to be counted or reported no record of that activity is kept).

    What do yo mean that 'informal preaching is not required to be counted or reported?' If you're a Jehovah's Witness and you're not reporting your informal preaching then you haven't been listening to the meeting parts for the past decade. In fact, the society has increased the importance of informal preaching because so many individuals are not home when they call on weekday and weekend mornings (and the occasional evening). The total number of hours reported by the Society in the yearly report and the monthly reports does indeed contain the informal hours spent preaching by the friends.

  • FinnishInfo
    FinnishInfo

    Finland for example, Northern European country. I would guess this is valid also in Sweden, Denmark..

    As far I can see, increasing numbers won't come back. Decline or +-0 % in numbers for several last years (-1% 2005). Kingdom halls full of people getting old. Young people leaving, getting disfellowshipped or fading. Low meeting attendance. Watchtower is having real troubles to find people to run congregations businesses.

    Interesting point: Witnesses are having very much less children than people in common (stat is from governmental source) and age classes are declining in general in this country. I can't see any chances for growth but declining numbers and congregations ceased and merged.

  • TheListener
    TheListener

    David2002, I would love to discuss the preaching work with you in detail. If you'd like to discuss it as well please start a new thread specifically for that purpose.

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