1 Timothy 2:6

by defd 123 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • LittleToe

    Sorry Derrick, my research would concur with the others. "Corresponding" is superfluous to the sentence as a ransom is usually corresponds to the value of something anyway. The word is antilutron (one word).

    If you parse the word you get (quoting from Strongs):

    anti - A primary particle; opposite, that is, instead or because of (rarely in addition to): - for, in the room of. Often used in composition to denote contrast, requital, substitution, correspondence, etc.
    lutron - Something to loosen with, that is, a redemption price (figuratively atonement): - ransom.

    Lutron can be further parsed:

    luo - A primary verb; to "loosen" (literally or figuratively): - break (up), destroy, dissolve, (un-) loose, melt, put off.

    In other words it means "a corresponding-loosing-price" which is actually "a ransom".

    As Didier highlights, that doesn't make the NWT translation of this passage particularly bad in and of itself, other than the fact that it offers an opportunity to play a doctrinal bait-n-switch for what the passage is actually talking about.

  • defd

    The only place you'll find the word "perfect" in the whole of Deuteronomy in the NWT is in chapter 32:4 where it says

    Thanks LT If I wanted them to have it I would have gave it to them My self. Just trying to see whether they were REALLY interested or just looking to argue. Thanks

  • TheListener


    Byzantine (1991): 1 Timothy 2:6 o douV eauton antilutron uper pantwn to marturion kairoiV idioiV

    Textus Receptus (1550/1894): 1 Timothy 2:6 o douV eauton antilutron uper pantwn to marturion kairoiV idioiV

    Westcott and Hort (1881): 1 Timothy 2:6 o douV eauton antilutron uper pantwn to marturion kairoiV idioiV

    These are the Greek texts I looked at. I used Olivetree.com It allows you to view the Greek text alone. I'm not looking at how it was (or is) translated by the majority of translators, but the original Greek. Strong's word #487 - Antilutron means " what is given in exchange for another as the price of his
    redemption, ransom" Dictionary.com says Corresponding means:

    1. To be in agreement, harmony, or conformity.
    2. To be similar or equivalent in character, quantity, origin, structure

    Dictionary.com says Ransom means:

    1. The release of property or a person in return for payment of a demanded price.
    2. The price or payment demanded or paid for such release.
    3. A redemption from sin and its consequences.

    While I may agree that Jesus shed his perfect human life for Adam's perfect human life, the text in 2 Timothy 2:6 doesn't say "corresponding." It just says Ransom. Adding the word corresponding to the text does fit in nicely with my theology, but not with accurate translating.

    There must be other ways to show that Adam was perfect and that Jesus, a perfect man, sacrificed himself to atone for Adam's sin.

  • LittleToe


    I'm afraid that you're going to have to cite the Deuteronomy passage you're referring to, then, because I don't see any "exactly" to be proud of...

    Heathen:Perfect doesn't merely mean "without sin" at all. Sin can be interpreted to mean "falling short of perfection", but that's another story. I'll use a WTS illustration (which incidentally they stole from Christendom) to make my point:

    The WTS says that Adam fell short of the mark of perfection, a little like an archer shooting for a target but his arrow falling short.

    "Perfection" is then the mark or target, and a standard of [perfect] achievement. In that context sin means nothing without an undertanding of the word that it refers to "falling short" of. Nouns, verbs, adverbs and adjectives come to mind, for the grammatically challenged.

    In other words this is not a chicken and egg situation. The word "sin" is dependant on the term "perfect", not the word "perfect" dependant on the term "sin".

    To rephrase again: If sin is a falling short of perfection, perfection is not merely a lack of sinning.

    Re-reading it, it sounds convoluted. I hope my meaning is conveyed. I apologise if it is not.

  • TheListener

    I would just like to add that a ransom need not be of equal value to the thing being ransomed. If you were asking money for a human life, how would you say that any amount of money is equal to the life?

    Adding corresponding to the 1 Tim 2:6 text connotes equivalency. Equivalency isn't stated. What is stated is that Jesus paid a price for us, his life. Was that price equivalent? Look to other Bible texts to figure it out, because 1 Tim. 2:6 doesn't say.

  • LittleToe
    Thanks LT If I wanted them to have it I would have gave it to them My self. Just trying to see whether they were REALLY interested or just looking to argue. Thanks

    But, but, but - that text doesn't say that man was created "perfect". It just says that the "rock"'s activities are perfect.

  • Triple A
    Triple A

    Deuteronomy 32:4 NIV "He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he."

    Defd you agreed earlier that perfect means without sin. IMO this verse when read with the text around it is saying that what God does he does without sin. Otherwise you would have to say that all of Adams ways were just. I do not beleive that you can use this verse to support that Adam was made perfect only that God did not sin in making Adam.

  • LittleToe

    Just out of interest, did you read that verse after following our discussion the other day on Birthdays, given that 1Tim.2:9 was quoted about hair styles?

  • in a new york bethel minute
    in a new york bethel minute
    Jgnat again i will say>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.I will give you the book where it says they were made (created ) perfect but not the verse. I dont want you to get LAZY! It is in Deuteronomy. If you really want to know, find it

    defd you have to realise how many people are just reading this and are on the fence with a lot of things... believe it or not, a lot of us still believe in at least SOME jw doctrine... you have a chance to quote something from a scripture that helps to "prove" a jw doctrine, or as witnesses will call it, TRUTH... but you refuse to do it. why? just quote the bloody scripture so we can all read it. there are a lot of people who are ready to fall off the fence... which way do you want them to fall? if you KNOW THE TRUTH, THEN SHARE IT or YOU ARE BLOOD-GUILTY...


  • TD

    My research says otherwise. show me where you looked.

    Oh for bloody crying out loud, Defd! We went through all of this.....

    You were not reading a translation of the text. Heck, you were not even reading the interlinear text.

    You were reading the sublinear text -- idiomatic variants in this case. Further, the entry does not say "Corresponding Ransom", (Adjective modifying Noun) it says, "Correspondent <Dash> Ransom" (Two Nouns)

    Why you think this supports the idea that other translations have left something out, or that "Corresponding Ransom" is a more correct translation than simply "Correspondent" or "Ransom" I honestly can't fathom.

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