1 Timothy 2:6 (page 11)

defd

Little toe Deut. says that Jehovahs ACTIVITYis PERFECT. Would that not apply to His ACTIVITY when He created the first man and women? I think so!

D.

jgnat

First of all, defd, when I said this:

We assume that perfect people would not sin

I was not talking about JW's. I was talking about everybody. As in:

perfection -----> sinless

Perfection leads to sinlessness. I am most concerned about the converse, that is, sinless = perfection. Which it doesn't. Do you believe that it was sin that made Adam less than perfect, thus open to disease?

defd

Yes jgnat I do. That is the whole reason why we grow old get sick and die, sin. That is why in revelations after sin is done away with the Adamic sin , the result is, no more sickness, no more death.

D.

jgnat

See, there's my peeve right there. Associating sinlessness as equal to perfection.

Was Satan created before or after Adam?

defd

Before Wait let me rephrase that. The Angel that BECAME Satan was created before adam.

LittleToe

I agree.

The "rock's" activity is perfect. He created the perfect gardener, one who could shovel and shyte, thereby produce his on manure.

That doesn't make Adam perfect in any moral sense. How do you come to that conclusion?

Further, who is the "rock" and who is our creator?

Further still, what tree did Satan eat from?

Further still again, is a gardener equivalent to a carpenter, and has that always been the case?

jgnat

The angel that became Satan was created perfect, then? When Satan sinned, was his life shortened?

TD

He use that Watchtower trick of saying "the evidence says" "the facts tell us" "sources tell us" without actually telling us what the source of the information was.

In fairness to Defd (again) Finally-Free posted a link to an interlinear very early on in this thread:

http://www.scripture4all.org

This tool is provided free by the Concordant Publishing Concern, publishers of the Concordant Literal Version. Not surprisingly then, it is based on the "Concordant method" of translation advocated by A. E. Knoch and one of three translations available for download at this site is in fact, Knoch's Concordant Literal Version.

One of the textual apparatus included with the software is Knoch's Concordant Greek-English Idiomatic Sublinear (Nestle-Aland variant) and the entry for antilutron is "correspondent-ransom" So the source here is not the JW's or the JW organization, it's A. E. Knoch. (Again, I hope Defd will correct me if I'm wrong.)

Knoch is something of a maverick and the CLNT certainly has its share of idiosyncrasies. Here's one example:

Mark 14:21: "...The Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"

Most would consider the antecedent of "him" in this passage to be Judas Iscariot, not Jesus. In other words, Judas would have been better off not having been born. (cf. Lu. 22:22; Mat. 18:7) Knoch considers the "Him" to be Jesus and capitalizes it accordingly.

Other criticisms of the CLNT will probably endear him to JW's. He translates xulon as "pole"; inserts the word "become" in Rev 21:6 and inserts the word "His" in 1 Cor. 15:24.

stev

Here is the meaning of the Greek word "lutron" :

http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3083

Strong's Number: 3083 lu/tron
Original Word Word Origin
lu/tron from (3089)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Lutron loo'-tron
Parts of Speech TDNT
Noun Neuter 4:328 & 4:340,543
Definition
the price for redeeming, ransom
paid for slaves, captives
for the ransom of life
to liberate many from misery and the penalty of their sins

Translated Words
KJV (2) - ransom, 2;
NAS (2) - ransom, 2;

Verse Count
KJV NAS
Matthew 1
Mark 1
Matthew 1
Mark 1

Here is the meaning of the Greek word "antilutron":

http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=487

Strong's Number: 487 a)ntiðlutron
Original Word Word Origin
a)ntiðlutron from (473) and (3083)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Antilutron an-til'-oo-tron
Parts of Speech TDNT
Noun Neuter 4:349,543
Definition
what is given in exchange for another as the price of his redemption, ransom

Translated Words
KJV (1) - ransom, 1;
NAS (1) - ransom, 1;

Verse Count
KJV NAS
1 Timothy 1
1 Timothy 1

Translations of 1 Tim. 2:6 :

1 Timothy 2:6

The Holy Bible, New International Version®: who gave himself as a ransom for all men - the testimony given in its proper time.
The American Standard Version: who gave himself a ransom for all; the testimony [to be borne] in its own times;
The New American Standard Bible: who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
The King James Version (Authorized): Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
The New King James Version: who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
The Revised Standard Version: who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time.
The New Revised Standard Version: who gave himself a ransom for all - this was attested at the right time.
The J.B. Rotherham Emphasized Bible: Who gave himself a ransom in behalf of all, - the testimony, in its own fit times:
Young's Literal Translation: who did give himself a ransom for all -- the testimony in its own times --
International Standard Version: He gave himself as a ransom for all, a fact that was acknowledged at the right time.

defd

The angel that became Satan was created perfect, then? ; When Satan sinned, was his life shortened? Yes infact it was and is. He will be DESTROYED. He will forever be dead instead of alive like he was supposed to when he was originally created! D.

1 Timothy 2:6

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