Posts by DT

50

5th Annual Memorial night demonstration at Kingdom Hall!

by the research lady in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l6pq3iuerk&feature=channel_page http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc4oroawdus&feature=channel_page http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8zcz-eabi8&feature=channel_page memorial night is fast approaching.

our 5th annual demonstration will be held in front of the kingdom hall on bridge lane in wilmington mass.

u.s.a.on thursday april 9,2009. demonstrations on memorial night are very effective in reaching people who may be considering becoming a jehovah's witness.

DT

I'm glad that some people are doing this. I'm sure that the results will be mixed, hopefully it will be more beneficial than harmful. I think it is fair to say that some dubs will probably never have their eyes opened and will just become more determined when they face "persecution". However, a few might check a website or two and start down the path of recovery. I think it is more important that newcomers to the hall and the general public are warned about the dangers of the Jehovah's Witnesses. The public usually thinks of Witnesses as minor nuisances and don't realise how dangerous they are.

I personally wouldn't be interested in joining this kind of protest, but don't want to criticise those who do. They may be doing some good, or if not, maybe we can at least learn from their mistakes.

I might be interested in joining a protest if certain conditions are met. These are just my preferences.

I don't like doing anything that will make people sympathetic towards the Witnesses. Protesting on their "holy day" might not be the best strategy. The special talk after the memorial (or any other Sunday) might be more effective. There is also the advantage that the signs could be better seen in the daylight and the dubs might not feel as persecuted.

I wouldn't want to join a protest that just advocates an alternate theology.

I would prefer smaller protests that seem less intimidating, something that makes it look like we are trying to educate rather than "protest". If a lot of people want to help, they can always distribute themselves among several halls.

13

march 14th is Pi Day

by chickpea in

3.1415926535 8979323846 2643383279 5028841971 6939937510 5820974944 5923078164 0628620899 8628034825 3421170679 8214808651 3282306647 0938446095 5058223172 5359408128 4811174502 8410270193 8521105559 6446229489 5493038196 4428810975 6659334461 2847564823 3786783165 2712019091 4564856692 3460348610 4543266482 1339360726 0249141273 7245870066 0631558817 4881520920 9628292540 9171536436 7892590360 0113305305 4882046652 1384146951 9415116094 3305727036 5759591953 0921861173 8193261179 3105118548 0744623799 6274956735 1885752724 8912279381 8301194912 9833673362 4406566430 8602139494 6395224737 1907021798 6094370277 0539217176 2931767523 8467481846 7669405132 0005681271 4526356082 7785771342 7577896091 7363717872 1468440901 2249534301 4654958537 1050792279 6892589235 4201995611 2129021960 8640344181 5981362977 4771309960 5187072113 4999999837 2978049951 0597317328 1609631859 5024459455 3469083026 4252230825 3344685035 2619311881 7101000313 7838752886 5875332083 8142061717 7669147303 5982534904 2875546873 1159562863 8823537875 9375195778 1857780532 1712268066 1300192787 6611195909 2164201989.

DT

Hey, I think you might have gotten the first thousand digits of pi from one of my blog posts from a few years back (or a post that copied it) The formatting is even the same. If so, it means our paths crossed outside of JWN. That's kind of cool. (To me anyways, I can't seem to get the PM feature to work. Others might not be as interested.) I just checked my stats and I've been getting a lot of traffic to that blog. I forgot it was pi day until I saw your post.

27

Thoughts on the 2012 theory?!

by ZeusZero in

what are your thoughts on the 2012 theory regarding the end of the world.

we have read recently about the financial crisis being an early sign of this end.

id like to know what you fellow brothers and sisters think of this.

DT

I think the seven times of Daniel fits 2012 much better than 1914. If the first fulfillment refers to the humiliation of the King of Babylon, why couldn't the "major fulfillment" start with the humiliation of the Kingdom of Babylon in 539 BC? (At least this is a date everyone agrees on.) This fits better than the destruction of the somewhat minor city of Jerusalem, before the first fulfillment even started. Seven times has to include at least one leap month of 30 days. (Something the Watchtower Society seems to have forgotten) This gives us 2,550 days or years. Add that to 539 BC, while remembering there is no zero year, gives us 2012. Like the 1914 prophecy, it is even confirmed by an ancient pyramid building civilisation, and in a much more dramatic way than constantly changing measurements from the inside of a pyramid.

This is all pretty silly, but I don't think it is any more silly than what Charlie Russell came up with. (As far as I know, this is my idea, and the Watchtower Society can't have it.)

83

Do not Disassociate, Anull your baptism

by jwfacts in

i am now a jedi, so trust me on this.. .

why dis-associate, you are just playing by the wts rules?

how can you dis-associate anyway, you never thought you were baptised as a watchtower society member, you thought your dedication was to god, so why formally disassociate from something you did not formally join?

DT

"I wonder though, what if one were to write a letter saying that you no longer recognise yourself as a member of the XXXXtown Congregation of Jehovah's witnesses? Would that stop the local body having authority over you? The congregations don't have the same legal resources as the WTBTS. "

Good question. I think it depends on how the Watchtower Society tries to represent itself. They want to be in charge of the local congregations, but they also want to insulate themselves from legal liabilities from the local congregations. I don't think it would make much difference now, but if legal pressures forces them to continue moving away from a hierarchical structure, then maybe we will see the day when we can just resign from a local congregation without the headquarters wanting to make it apply to the whole organisation.

I wrote the headquarters once asking for confirmation of my status after I left. (I just wanted something in writing.) They just referred me to the local congregation. It's almost like they were trying to deny responsibility for any action taken against me.

45

Atheists/Theists: What is the best argument FOR theism (a God's existence) you have heard?

by Spook in

i have lived for the last 3 years with two phd philosophers as roomates, both in the last year of their dissertation at reputable institutions (notre dame, penn/uic respectively).

they are both moderate semi-christian theists after having been fundamentalists as youths.

i have a sceince and engineering background and am a naturalist atheist former jw.

DT

It depends on how you define God.

I don't know of any good argument for a God who always existed in his present complex form. It's totally nonsensical, at least in our realm of reality. (I guess you could argue for a separate reality where the rules are different, but that isn't much of an argument.)

It's possible that a godlike creature could have evolved and that he might have intervened in some way in the events that led to us. Of course, he might be dead now or else unaware of our existence, so it wouldn't be too surprising if evidence of this is hard to find. A godlike creature is less likely than our more modest form of life, but if he intervened repeatedly in different worlds or universes, it could skew the odds somewhat so that any life form that has existed would be more likely to result from his intervention, rather than being part of his own evolutionary history or a line of descent unrelated to him.

21

What is the WTS financial position?

by Roddy in

i know this may seen an obvious question but i'm wondering if their downward financial situation is accelerating in the last five years.. we know of the large real estate sell-offs in brooklyn and their large bethel layoffs -- things they never report on in their publications.

pushing more and more of the traveling overseer expenses to the local circuit and congregations.

how they have taken a lot of shortcuts with regards their printing operations.

DT

Unfortunately, we don't have any way of knowing what their true financial position is. I doubt that even the governing body has a good idea of how they are doing financially. I think it is plausible that they might have much more money than they indicate. Their cost cutting could be just a ploy to encourage donations while keeping expenses low. It might depend on whether the people who handle the money actually believe in the religion. If not, they might be diverting funds elsewhere or hiding money in case the organisation collapses.

On the other hand, their financial position could be much worse than we are led to believe. I could see this being the case if they made bad investments or are making secret settlements to avoid highly publicised lawsuits.

As long as they handle their money wisely, they should be able to meet their modest expenses (considering all the free labor they use) while squeezing the poor publishers for money and enjoying occasional windfalls when they die and name the Watchtower society in their wills. I think they are probably more concerned that the legal climate could change and they will have to face an avalanche of lawsuits. That could bankrupt them.

52

JW self-defense...WT says we are too slow to use a gun!!!.......

by oompa in

you gotta read this to beleive it!.....lately my mind is teaching s we had that "went beyond what is written" and this subject on self defence has cracked me up!!

!.....you if gotta see this to believe it!....not just guns....but almost everthing is bashed...they did leave out the option of us carrying a sword o.j.

style....or a spear.....this will make my list....(and you can have no privileges if you carry a gun at work...cop or security guard).......... *** g91 7/8 p. 12 self-defensehow far can a christian go?

DT

Here's an interesting quote from the 1/15 Watchtower 1964 pages 63-64, "A Christian woman is entitled to fight for her virginity or marital fidelity to the death."

It would appear that she can fight to the death, but without the benefit of weapons or self defense training, although her husband should just run away " If violence seems imminent". Evidently, this only applies to rape, so she better not fight if the only concern is her safety or the safety of her family.

77

New BOE letter re: parents permitting fornication

by sir82 in

jw
friends

unfortunately i have no scanner.

but i thought y'all might like a glance into the latest mind of "mother".. i won't type out the whole thing, but just select pertinent parts to quote:.

"to all bodies of elders.

DT

For some reason I can't see all the posts. I apologise if I'm repeating comments.

I find this to be very disturbing. It sets some dangerous precedents and contains enough vague language to encourage serious abuses.

There are too many unanswered questions. What do they mean by allowing someone to practice fornication? It sounds as if just allowing someone to live in your home makes you guilty if they practice fornication. What if the family member is a minor or parent who needs care? How are you supposed to stop them if you discover them in the act? The only Biblical precedent I can think of is to kill them with a spear like Phinehas did.

Why should this be limited to fornication? Will they apply these principles to all JW beliefs in the future? It seems like they could be coming up with excuses to avoid taking care of needy, unbelieving parents or unbelieving children beyond the time required by law. If JW's can be held accountable for the acts of unbelieving family members, then we can expect that many will become even more abusive in trying to impose their religion on their family.

What if a family member accepts a blood transfusion? Would a JW have to evict them during their recovery to avoid the appearance of condoning the choice? Why should a blood transfusion be treated differently than fornication? It's an even more serious sin in JW land.

What if an unbelieving family member is paying rent? Will the governing body clarify what exactly they mean be living in your home? Would renting a room make the JW accountable for the relatives actions, but would they be viewed as innocent if the family member rents an apartment in the same home with a separate entrance. Will JW's be allowed to rent to any nonbeliever who might do something wrong? Will they be barred from running hotels because this could be viewed as allowing people to practice fornication?

The governing body will have to clarify these issues if they don't want local elders to take their counsel to extremes. If they come up with more rules, there will be even more unanswered questions. It's a dangerous and slippery slope.

They seem to have really crossed a line with this letter. They are going well beyond abusing their own members. They are encouraging the imposition of their beliefs on people who choose not be JW's. This makes them a threat to society in general and could have legal consequences. I think it would be relevant in child custody cases. The judges need to know that the children will be punished by shunning if they break the rules or leave the JW religion. Even then, they will be pressured to live up to JW standards of morality by parents who will themselves be punished if they don't enforce their beliefs on their unbelieving children.

51

Florida woman fired for saying Merry Christmas instead of Happy holidays!

by Witness 007 in

foxnews reports that a florida woman was fired for refusing to say: "happy holidays" she insisted that as a christian she use the term christmas.

i have found others with the same view.

though one witness sister was fired from a smallgoods company for refusing to say "merry christmas.

DT

Foxnews reports that a Florida woman was fired for refusing to say: "Happy holidays" she insisted that as a christian she use the term christmas.

I'm not sure what actually happened, based on this brief description. I think it is ok for an employer to ask their workers to not use religious expressions when interacting with the public. I don't believe it would be ok to require the use of any religious expressions, including Happy Holidays (keeping in mind that a holiday or holy day is generally related to religion). It sounds like the employer was allowing or requiring one expression while forbidding another. That sounds discriminatory to me.

Although I'm not a theist and I don't have much enthusiasm for Christmas, I still prefer Merry Christmas to Happy Holidays. Christmas has become very secularized, but Happy Holidays seems like a minor insult towards those who don't view any day as holy.

I like Seasons Greetings. It makes no reference to a particular religion and appeals to both the wonders of winter and the promise it will someday end (based on the winter solstice and the start of increasing daylight).

7

The legal implications of a Watchtower power struggle.

by DT in

jw
friends

in the united states, the courts have refused to hear cases about disfellowshippings or shunning issues because of reluctance to interfere with church law.

this has protected the watchtower society legally and given them wide latitude in how they abuse their members.. i wonder if this could also work to their disadvantage.

a disfellowshipping is a simple case of one person against many, so it can safely be assumed that the many are the ones enforcing church law.

DT

What I don't understand is how anyone thinks that trying to preserve the Jehovah's Witnesses religion in any form, albeit completely reformed after huge amounts of effort and lots of luck, is worth all the trouble.

I agree that the Jehovah's Witness religion is probably irreformable. I'm exploring the idea of internal conflict because I believe it is possible that this could lead to their demise, or at least a loss of influence, not because I think it would an effective path towards reform.

The odds of successfully doing it are miniscule. They have the money and the lawyers and the protection of the Courts.

That's why I think it is interesting to speculate about what would happen if an internal power struggle threatened to cause a division of their assets or even a seizure of their assets by an internal faction. I think it might be more fair to say that they have the nonintervention of the
courts. I don't see why this couldn't hurt them if the right kind of situation presented itself.

And what would you get if your wish came true?

I want the governing body to lose power and influence and maybe some sleep over the possibility that their own members will someday learn about what kind of frauds they are. This is unlikely to happen do to external opposition. Jehovah's Witnesses have a strong us verses them mentality that prevents them from even listening to criticism. It would be different if an internal conflict confused the issue over who the "us" is or which group is supposed to get their unquestioning loyalty. They would actually have to think and consult their own consciences instead of letting a group of old men do the thinking for them. I think this would be the beginning of the end for the Watchtower Society.

(Hint: you can't shine shit.)

Very true, but I would love to see the kind of mess that is made if the Witnesses try.