or should i say goodbye folks.
my posting days on xjw sites are over.. thanks to everybody for making this place so vibrant, informative and at times invigorating.
an special thanks of course to simon and angharad, of whom too many expected too much and who, despite our differing viewpoints at times, have been trustworthy friends to me.
I'm not sure if my involvement in causes, benefits, marches, and demonstrations has made a huge difference, but I know one thing: that involvement has connected me with the good people: people with the live hearts, the live eyes, the live heads. --Pete Seeger
Every morning I awake torn between a desire to save the world and an inclination to savor it. This makes it hard to plan the day. --E. B. White
May you stay live and savor.
Ginny
i've had this theory for some time and alluded to it occassionally but have never explored it in detail.. it is of course a huge generalisation so no, not everyone will fit into the boxes and i'd like people's opinion.
i don't know everyone's circumstances so it's based on a small sample of some of those i do know something about.
it could be completely wrong, it's just an idea.. basically, i have seen a difference between some of those ex-jws who walked out vs those who were kicked out.. the most bitter and obsessive seem to be the kicked out and, i must add, those who were legitimately kicked out.
willyloman,
I wasn't totally ignored. After all, SixofNine did recall his motivations for attending the Kingdom Hall.
After my post on this thread, I was mulling over HillaryStep's thought that large organizations can be sociopathic. Coincidentally, while reading a book called Simple Prosperity by David Wann, I came across this paragraph:
For example, former New York attorney Robert Hinkley has drafted twenty-eight words--a "do-no-harm" clause--that he believes should be inserted into all corporate charters. This clause would take away CEO's chronic excuse for antisocial, antienvironmental behavior: that they are just "serving their shareholders."
Here is the clause, a "Code of Corporate Citizenship." The twenty-eight words are bolded.
The duty of directors henceforth shall be to make money for shareholders but not at the expense of the environment, human rights, public health and safety, dignity of employees, and the welfare of the communities in which the company operates .
This could be easily adapted for non-profit corporations, too.
I'll also share two quotations cited in Wann's book:
I'm not sure if my involvement in causes, benefits, marches, and demonstrations has made a huge difference, but I know one thing: that involvement has connected me with the good people: people with the live hearts, the live eyes, the live heads. --Pete Seeger
You never change something by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. --Buckminster Fuller
Ginny
i've had this theory for some time and alluded to it occassionally but have never explored it in detail.. it is of course a huge generalisation so no, not everyone will fit into the boxes and i'd like people's opinion.
i don't know everyone's circumstances so it's based on a small sample of some of those i do know something about.
it could be completely wrong, it's just an idea.. basically, i have seen a difference between some of those ex-jws who walked out vs those who were kicked out.. the most bitter and obsessive seem to be the kicked out and, i must add, those who were legitimately kicked out.
As I understand it, Simon's question is not about whether disfellowshipping as practiced by JWs is humane.
Simon's theory (by his own admission, a huge, sweeping generalization not applicable to every individual circumstance, one that he offered for exploration and comments) is:
Ex-JWs who were kicked out (more specifically, disfellowshipped legitimately, i.e. in compliance with accepted Watchtower Society rules) appear to be more obsessive longer (e.g. 20+ years after being DFed, still defining oneself as an ex-JW, friends and associates are mainly ex-JWs, inability to let go.)
Ex-JWs who decided to walk away seem more grounded and thoughtful. Once their questions have been answered and they've received immediate support, these let go and move on. They do not define themselves as ex-JWs years after leaving.
An even simpler version might be to ask--What causes some ex-JWs to remain obsessively involved in the ex-JW world long after leaving the JWs?
I haven't seen a clear-cut difference between DFed ex-JWs and walk-away ex-JWs. I do think a lot hinges on how one views the experience. If we see ourselves as helpless victims, the hurt, anger, and feelings of betrayal last a long time. We're bitter. We want revenge. We want justice. We want to talk to others who understand our traumatic experience.
Being able to let go is about forgiveness. We forgive ourselves for our own choices. We forgive ourselves for the harm we may have caused others. We forgive those who may have influenced our decisions. Once we're able to forgive, we can move on to asking, "How can I prevent this from happening to myself and others in the future?"
I was a child when my parents became Jehovah's Witnesses. I realize now that they did the best they could with the knowledge they had at the time. In the chaotic world of the late 60's, they were looking for hope, structure, and a sense of security.
I chose to continue as a JW as an adult. In the "Eyes Wide Shut" thread started by Amnesian, my eyes were opened to my own share of responsibility in the choice. I was not a helpless victim. I had wanted easy answers. I had wanted the hope of immortal life in paradise. I lacked critical thinking skills and did not investigate the Society. I had chosen to give my power away. I had chosen to submit to the Watchtower rules.
When I first discovered that the Watchtower Society tells lies, it was easy to be angry at Brooklyn and to want to "topple the Tower." As time went on, I remembered that most of the JWs in my congregation were good, well-meaning people who were just as duped as I was. I've read stories here of folks at Bethel who were also good and well-intentioned. Ray Franz was a member of the Governing Body for several years and thought he was helping. Which men are to blame? Who are the bad guys? Which ones are deliberately evil?
I agree with HillaryStep that 'large organizations can be sociopathic in nature: no conscience, no feeling, no individuality, just a machine that grinds away focused on one objective.' I hope we figure out how to straitjacket organizations like these so they cannot harm themselves and others.
Why are some ex-JWs obsessed with the ex-JW world long after leaving? Here are some more ideas:
Ginny
Craigster (?!) and Kate,
I'm giving you astern warning--
Your ship looks like it could use some bottom paint.
I guess I've just succumbed to mast hysteria.
Ginny
C'mon, Sixy! Get jiggy wid it and kEeP yOuR eYeZ on DA pRiZe!
2Pac:
Oh, you tink life is yours?
Life ain't na somethin you can rap with . . .
Always keep my eyes on the prize, watch the police
Seen so much murder, neighborhoods gettin no sleep . . .
Ginny
we had a little party at our house last night, wish we could have had the whole pnw crew in, but alas, not enough room or valium- ha!
for those who did come, thanks for showing, and we really enjoyed your company!
sorry about that one moment when i brought out an awake!
Many thanks, Odrade and Pater, for your warm hospitality.
I especially liked the book study chair arrangement and Odrade's upbuilding reading of the Awake!
If only the Society would follow your shining example and offer cheesecake and Scotch on Tuesday nights, I'm sure meeting attendance would dramatically improve. Perhaps we should start a new religion?
Ginny
Back to note that I just discovered that the plural of "haiku" is "haiku."
If your subject is semolina, then you would have haicouscous.
Ginny
Shall we give equal opportunity to felines?
Ginny
You never feed me.
Perhaps I'll sleep on your face.
That will sure show you.
You must scratch me there!
Yes, above my tail! Behold,
Elevator butt.
I need a new toy.
Tail of black dog keeps good time.
Pounce! good dog! good dog!
The rule for today
Touch my tail, I shred your hand
New rule tomorrow
In deep sleep hear sound
Cat vomit hairball somewhere
Will find in morning
Grace personified,
I leap into the window.
I meant to do that.
The mighty hunter
Returns with gifts of plump birds --
Your foot just squashed one.
You're always typing.
Well, let's see you ignore my
Sitting on your hands.
Blur of motion, then --
Silence, me, a paper bag.
What is so funny?
My small cardboard box.
You cannot see me if I
Can just hide my head.
Terrible battle.
I fought for hours. Come and see!
What's a ?term paper??
Kitty likes plastic
Confuses for litter box
Don't leave tarp around
Small brave carnivores
Kill pine cones and mosquitoes
Fear vacuum cleaner
Want to trim my claws?
Don't even think about it!
My yelps will wake dead.
I want to be close
To you. Can I fit my head
inside your armpit?
Wanna go outside.
Oh, shit! Help! I got outside!
Let me back inside!
Oh no! Big One
has been trapped by newspaper!
Cat to the rescue!
Humans are so strange.
Mine lies still in bed, then screams!
My claws aren't that sharp...
Cats meow out of angst
"Thumbs! If only we had thumbs!
We could break so much!"
Litter box not here
You must have moved it again
I'll crap in the sink.
The Big Ones snore now
Every room is dark and cold
Time for "Cup Hockey"
We're almost equals
I purr to show I love you
Want to smell my butt?
the buddhists say there are eight winds.
they are gain and loss, praise and ridicule, credit and blame, and suffering and joy.
if you aren't aware of them, they will blow you away like dry leaves in an autumn breeze.
The Buddhists say there are eight winds. They are gain and loss, praise and ridicule, credit and blame, and suffering and joy. If you aren't aware of them, they will blow you away like dry leaves in an autumn breeze. For example, when someone praises you, and that tastes sweet, like candy in your mouth, you are being blown away by the wind of praise.
One day in ancient China a young man thought he had become enlightened. He wrote a poem to his master about how he was not blown by the eight winds. Then he sent it to his master who lived three hundred miles up the Yangtze River.
When his master read the poem, he wrote "Fart, Fart" on the bottom and sent it back.
The more the young man read those words, the more upset he got. At last he decided to visit his master. In those days, a three-hundred-mile trip up the Yangtze River was a very difficult journey.
As soon as he arrived, he went straight to his master's temple. "Why did you write this? he asked, bowing. "Doesn't this poem show that I am no longer blown about by the eight winds?"
"You say that you are no longer blown by the eight winds," replied the master, "but two little farts blew you all the way up here."
What winds are blowing you?
from Soul Stories by Gary Zukav
A monk asked Zen Master Tosu, "Am I correct when I understand the Buddha as asserting that all talk, however trivial or derogatory, belongs to ultimate truth?" Master Tosu said, "Yes, you are right." The monk went on, "May I then call you a donkey?" The master hit the monk with a stick.
from Crazy Wisdom by Wes "Scoop" Nisker
Gedanken made me do it--he's a rouge element, You Know.
Back to the jacuzzi with Si and Ona . . .
Ginny
seven006 look through your fingers if you feel darling so inclined, though seriously mate, you can't get upset with this one, if it's good enough for this guy to appear on the richard & judy show at teatime dressed only in his birthday suit, it has to get through your censoring gaze.. the celt grins.. there was this guy making the news in the uk recently.
today he featured on the richard & judy show, teatime viewing time.
(not even the 1800hrs or 2100hrs thresholds).
I wonder if John O'Groats was related to a former coworker of mine? The coworker's motto was:
I run naked through the streets not because I'm proud, but because I have nothing to hide.
His name was StEVE.
Ginny, still lusting for Englishman's "Naked Farmers of the UK" calendar
