Awakened07

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Posts by Awakened07

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  106

  REALLY Think about it before you post

  by avidbiblereader in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  there is a lot of threads going back and forth both ways, almost like a battle line has been drawn between believers and atheists.

  however, let's just say for the sake of argument, that all religions including the witnesses, are wrong but the bible in itself is right.. everything that it has foretold is going to happen and just as god told noah, in 7 more days i am going to make it rain, but this time he now speaks to all of us and says in just 7 more days i will wipe the earth clean of all those who have or are revolting/disagree against me.. how would you react then?

  how would you live your next 7 days?

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  Awakened07

  But the opening premise was that the Bible turns out to be Right - just that no one had interpreted it correctly.

  Seeker4 has posted for me.

  By the way - is this a "What if you're wrong" -thread?

  'Cause those can be fun...
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  111

  I REALLY DON'T CARE...............................

  by Warlock in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i believe in god, but i also realize he may not exist.. if you don't believe in god, i really don't care, i'm just curious.. i don't have this need to start threads like "why you must believe in god", or other such nonsense, but some of you still have this "control" issue that you thought you left in the org.

  it seems like you must still try to control what others think.

  "think like me, or you are an idiot.

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  Awakened07

  I'd just like to say very briefly that I think I can come across as a "know-it-all" in some of my posts. If so, that is not my intention, I just state the "facts" as per my current and accumulated knowledge/understanding. Since I view myself as an atheist right now (maybe I should say agnostic, 'cause there seems to be some confusion as to what an atheist can be), it may seem like I bash the beliefs of theists. I would rather say that I'm just posting my view and pointing out things I disagree with, and/or trying to make people think logically. And as others have said before me this is a discussion forum, and if I put out my views I expect that people with opposing views would reply to my post and refute my points. If done in a somewhat civil manner, I wouldn't take that as an attack. It would then be my job to either counter that argument, or reevaluate my own understanding.
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  284

  NAME JUST ONE thing....ONE THING...revealed by God....

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  somebody is always insisting they have an invisible and mysterious source of divine information and selling it like hotcakes and syrup.

  but, why are you still buying?

  when will you ever learn that this is a scam among many scams.

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  Awakened07

  Sad Emo:

  People use the science of today to make sense of the creation story of the Bible. When something said there doesn't match what are known observable facts today, people will say "Well, you have to understand it like this, not like that."

  For instance, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." (KJV)

  According to our best natural understanding, light came into existence quite immediately after the Big Bang - not after the planets had formed. That's pretty basic. "Well, obviously, but that verse is referring to the light from our sun shining upon the earth". OK, but our sun was also formed before the planet according to science [edited to say: planets formed from a disk around the sun, so you could say they formed at the same time, but I think the sun "sparked" and became a "nuclear furnace" before the planets were completely formed [/edited]. "OK.... but then this first light must have been emanating from God himself, it was the light of God". OK, but that kind of ruins the explanation for verse 16:

  In verse 16, it says (14 and 15 first): "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good."

  This verse is explained to mean that God "obviously" didn't create the sun and the moon at this point (why not? because science has found out that couldn't be the case, or because....?), but that the sun had been created in verse 1 already, and that this verse simply means that the rays of the sun for some reason didn't reach the surface of the earth until this point, or that from a human observer's perspective (had he been present), the atmosphere became clearer and the sun would become visible on earth at this point.

  This creates two problems (at least):

  1) There was a water firmament surrounding earth according to the Bible, and that water firmament or canopy was used in the deluge of Noah's day. All of earth was covered with this water (plus the waters of the deep), enough to go above any mountain (even though lower than today, still quite a few thousand feet high I'd think - otherwise you couldn't really call them mountains). With this water canopy surrounding earth - how would you be able to see the sun - or the moon? Do you see the sun even on a normal, cloudy day? But back then, there was a really thick water canopy surrounding earth. How could one say that the sun became more visible (from a human observer's perspective) on this day because the atmosphere cleared up, when there was this really thick layer of water around the globe?

  2) God created grass and plants/trees on the third day: "And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so."

  Since we're trying to establish if this story is scientifically correct (and if so, establish that Moses couldn't have known how this happened on his own), it's important to note that plants would have needed the sun in order to live. But the sun was created on the next day - which if you're an "old earth creationist" like JWs are, would have lasted several thousand years. Several thousand years for plants, with no sunlight. Yes, you could call in a miracle, but then this debate would be moot. You could say as I explained above that He didn't create the sun after the plants, but that the sun became visible, or it's rays came through on the day after the plants had been created, but then you'd still get the problems I mentioned above.

  I am aware of the different Hebrew words used for the creation of the initial light and the sun; 'created' (bara') and 'made' ('asah) , but I don't see the big significance. When you just read the story as-is, it looks like God created light on the first day, but only after having made the heavens and earth. He made the sun and the moon on the fourth day. He made the plants and trees on the day before He made the sun. You can explain it away as I described, but it doesn't read as clearly and concisely as you'd think it would, coming directly from God Himself.

  Why do we assume that the creation story must mean this-and-that which is in agreement with modern science when ever it seems to be contradicting modern science? Could it be because we know that's not how it could have happened, and since this is The creation story, we have to assume that we must interpret it differently than what is directly written?

  Wouldn't that be a kind of circular logic?

  Conversation: "This is the creation story as inspired by God. Just look at it and you'll see it agrees with science." "OK, I've looked at it, but it doesn't seem to agree with science to me?" "Well - you have to interpret it a different way for it to agree with science, but then it does. And then you'll see it must be the word of God."

  I don't know. I may have missed something.
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  8

  HARD WIRED TO BELIEVE?

  by fifi40 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  having read through several of the recent threads on gods existence, religious hypochondria and those who simply state that they really dont care i asked myself the question why?.

  why do some people have faith and a desire to worship and believe?.

  why do some people despise faith and lack any sense of a 'greater' being?.

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  Awakened07

  And if this hard wiring is only part of evolution (a possible atheistic view) what purpose has it and does it serve?

  If it is the cause of evolution, I would say that could make perfect sense. The first 'humans' with the ability to contemplate their existence would be best served by believing death isn't the end. Those who chose not to believe in anything would probably be more prone to commit suicide than those who felt they had found a deeper meaning and would get life after death somehow (remember we're talking about the first hominids able to contemplate existence, and it would be quite enough dealing with the big questions, if not having to deal with death as being final). And any additional mutation causing a sense of a higher 'mysterious presence' to develop in the brain would be naturally selected for. Maybe the "theists" of those days had more children too, 'cause they were happy with existence whereas the "atheists" of the time were more cautious and pessimistic.

  I'm not saying this is what happened - actually I haven't even checked what science says about this, so this is my own little hypothesis based on just 'vanilla' evolutionary theory.

  Other than that, I think it's logical that if you really focus on something like when meditating, other parts of the brain will shut off. That's how the brain works. We don't use all of our brain at the same time because it would be inefficient. And if parts of the brain shut off due to meditation (concentration), then it's not far fetched that you'd feel detached from your physical body.

  (just trying to answer your specific question that I quoted, I'm not saying this is how it is. I'll make an effort to not be arrogant in my replies. I'll probably fail, but I'll try)
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  18

  Death in the Bible

  by Mrs. Witness in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this morning it occured to me how much death is in the bible.

  just off the top of my head: cain & abel, the flood, the guy who was going to sacrifice his son (isaac?

  ), the slaughter at jericho, jesus (and that includes torture), and all the death in revelation.

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  Awakened07

  Can anyone think of any more?

  -This could become a very long thread...

  The Bible is filled with death. Death is a natural thing, but the old testament is full of battles and killings and deseases that kill etc.

  185.000 soldiers killed in one night by an angel. 42 kids (or young men) killed by two bears sent by God because the kids were mocking God's prophet. Every first born Egyptian.

  Well - the list goes on and on. Pretty much every other page has something.
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  92

  ETERNITY BEFORE CREATION.....THE NON-EXISTENCE.....of GOD!

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  before god began creating.......he wasn't a creator.. before god began creating.....there was nothing......and therefore nothing to know.. before god began creating...there was nothing and nothing to know....and therefore nothing to love.. before god began creating...he was alone with nothing to distinguish him from nothingness except--what?

  his mind?

  filled with what, actually?.

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  Awakened07

  Science only deals with the physical, natural explanations. The supernatural may exist without science being able to measure or otherwise prove it. But the more science does it's work, the less places in this universe are left for a supernatural God to "hide". A few thousand years ago, God was everywhere. He was in a tornado, he was in lightening, he was in a tsunami, he was in the sun, he was in the stars, he was in a flower, a bird. It's strange how God has left so few physical clues that can't be explained. But on a more philosophical note; perhaps science is in fact describing his work without knowing it, kinda like the story of the blind men holding one part of an elephant in their hand each, and trying to describe what it is: "The blind man who feels a leg says the elephant is like a pillar; the one who feels the tail says the elephant is like a rope; the one who feels the trunk says the elephant is like a tree branch; the one who feels the ear says the elephant is like a hand fan; the one who feels the belly says the elephant is like a wall; and the one who feels the tusk says the elephant is like a solid pipe." They were all describing an elephant, to the best of their ability.

  But science can't hold up the supernatural as authority and then do scientific research based on that prerequisite. Then we'd be back to the days God was directly responsible for bad weather, and we wouldn't advance in knowledge of the physical world at all.

  It would be nice then, if we could turn to spirituality to get an answer about God. But there are thousands of religions and thousands of sects, and outside of those there are millions of people with their own very personal brand of beliefs, often a mishmash or various religions. No consensus on what and how God is. So it seems God, if he exists, hasn't made things easy for us. I suggest that if you're to really learn everything you'd need to know about each and every religious belief system, enough to make an informed decision, the 80 or so years you have on earth wouldn't be enough. And still, there are people basing their whole existence on each and every one of these religions. They really believe in them. So that means you really should take all of them seriously in your endeavor to find the right one.
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  12

  If I was Satan.........

  by beginnersmind in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the dragons post about wether satan was a hypocrite got me thinking.. .

  if according to gen 3:15 and the prophecy thats supposed to mean satan was going to kill jesus (brusing in the heel) and then jesus is going to destroy satan (bruising in the head) that would mean satan would know at an early stage what his life would entail right?.

  if i was satan (i'm not by the way) i might have 'looked' at this and other prophecies and decided i'm not going to help fulfill them.

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  Awakened07

  The ultimate rebel - doing exactly what his father has told him.

  I think that if I had challenged the leadership in my company and they let me have a period to show if I would be able to lead, and get the workers to do a good job under me, I would have done my very best to help the employees do their job - not send "my people" around the cubicles in order to sabotage their work.

  Why would I wanna go "HAHAHAHAHAAAA!! I wrecked your stupid company, losers!!!" - - knowing the reply would be: - - "Umm, yes - that's exactly what we said would happen...".
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  92

  ETERNITY BEFORE CREATION.....THE NON-EXISTENCE.....of GOD!

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  before god began creating.......he wasn't a creator.. before god began creating.....there was nothing......and therefore nothing to know.. before god began creating...there was nothing and nothing to know....and therefore nothing to love.. before god began creating...he was alone with nothing to distinguish him from nothingness except--what?

  his mind?

  filled with what, actually?.

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  Awakened07

  I think we're starting to talk about the properties of God. If God exists in a place outside of time, or somewhere time doesn't exist, then He cannot think in the same way we do, and He cannot move through any dimension the way we do. If He has thoughts in the same manner we do using a language, then one could measure the time between each word and between each sentence. If He moves within dimensions like we do, His every movement could be related to each other and you'd have time.

  And that's fine with me. But then we'd have to wonder why it is said that He created us in His image, if we are so different in these very basic areas of existence?

  And again; if He exists in a place with time(and He's eternal), then we're back to Him being inactive for all eternity before creating anything. Which again doesn't make sense. Full circle?
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  38

  Interesting test

  by nvrgnbk in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  http://www.evolutionary-metaphysics.net/enlightenment.html

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  Awakened07

  I got the same as FlipThis (and most others it would seem). I don't really like the notion that these people know the right answer, so we need to buy their book. That kinda negates the whole thing IMO.
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  92

  ETERNITY BEFORE CREATION.....THE NON-EXISTENCE.....of GOD!

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  before god began creating.......he wasn't a creator.. before god began creating.....there was nothing......and therefore nothing to know.. before god began creating...there was nothing and nothing to know....and therefore nothing to love.. before god began creating...he was alone with nothing to distinguish him from nothingness except--what?

  his mind?

  filled with what, actually?.

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  Awakened07

  Awakened, I don't think it's possible for anyone to be "outside of time" - time after all, is a concept that we have to measure periods between events. Time gives us a sense of where we are. Time is past, as in yesterday; it is present as in now and it is future as in tomorrow. By the time I submit this post, the present becomes the past...

  Yes, I would agree with that. The problem here is in talking about the biblical God (I would guess), who is from eternity to eternity as I have understood it. So if time was present before the universe, and God was there "spending time", that would mean there was an eternity of time before He started creating the universe, as I said. No matter when He started creating our universe (or the angels for that matter), there would be an eternity of time before He started creating. That's the problem of God and the existance of time before the universe, as I see it.