Has there been any "New Light" on the Blood Issue?

by Mastodon 168 Replies latest watchtower medical

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    rootcause


    Could you please respond to the point I made? Do you seriously think being evasive and failing to respond to a valid point impresses? I actually think it is the height of discourtesy... and extremely divergent from the example set in the Bible. Did the three young Hebrews bend over to tie their shoe laces (and thus seemingly bow) when told to bow to the statue, thus evading the point? Did Paul evade the issues raised when he was preaching to men af all nations?

    No, they stood up for what they belived in... which is what I expect you to do if you want your beliefs and claims to being a true Christian to be taken seriously.

    The Bible makes it very clear there were circumstances where the consumption of blood was allowed without a death penalty. We are told by the JW's that although the Mosaic Comandments have passed away it is still a good guide to god's desires for us where we are uncertain.

    The Mosaic Law shows us the blood comandment is not absolute, yet JW's say it is.

    Now respond to this point. I know you are evading it as you cannot cut and paste a reply from the Watchtower, that this is a genuine and major inconsistancy with JW Blood Doctrine or anything close to it, and that you probably don't even know how to begin to respond. That is why you avoid answering.

    Continued failure to deal with the point I have raised will only make this more obvious. Don't make yourself an 'empty vessel' by your own actions.

  • TD
    TD

    Even if we look upon the Apostolic Decree as binding law placed upon Christians for all time to come just for the sake of discussion, the JW argument does not support their conclusion.

    "Abstain from" constructions are grammatically incomplete because there is no transfer of action between subject and object..

    What this means in practical terms is that the completion of the thought happens entirely in the mind of the audience. For example:

    If my wife's obstetrician told her that, "Pregnant women should abstain from alcohol" she would understand from the setting and context of the statement that she was being told not to drink beverages containing alcohol.

    If my dermatologist told me that "Persons with sensitive skin should abstain from alcohol" I would understand from the setting and context of the statement that I was being told not to apply preparations containing alcohol to my skin.

    The verbs drink and apply which complete the thought weren't stated, they were deduced from the context and setting. In this example, even though both of us have been told to "abstain from alcohol," I would still be free to drink alcoholic beverages and my wife would still be free to use her cosmetics. The two abstentions have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

    It should therefore be plainly apparent that an "abstain from" phrase will mean entirely different things depending upon the context in which it appears.

    When you rip the phrase from its context and apply it in a new setting, you change its meaning entirely. This is exactly what the JW's do with blood. They rip the phrase, "abstain from blood" from the context of a discussion of the applicability of the Law and apply it in a context that is not only completely alien to the original discussion itself, it is completely alien to the cultural and historical setting in which the discussion took place.

    Therefore when a JW says, "Transfusion is wrong because the Bible tells us to abstain from blood!" I say, "Do you always treat the Bible with such utter disrespect?" This is blatant textual manipulation driven by sheer ignorance of language mechanics.

    Even if you view the Apostolic Decree as a command, the very most the phrase, "to be abstaining...from blood" means is, "Do not eat blood" And this is relevant to the field of medicine only if transfusion is somehow equivalent to eating blood.

  • rootcause
    rootcause

    Hello jgnat,

    What's the difference between taking a Vit C pill and using intravenous Vit C?

    Did you really found some bible verses contradicting?

    Did it not marriage is sacred? So, do want to see your husband with somebody, and therefore Tainting the sacredness of your marriage?

    (Leviticus 17:14) 14

    For the soul of every sort of flesh is its blood by the soul in it. Consequently I said to the sons of Israel: "YOU must not eat the blood of any sort of flesh, because the soul of every sort of flesh is its blood. Anyone eating it will be cut off."

    Is it not the mixing another soul in your soul tainting the sacredness of your life?

    What did Jesus mean in Matthew 16:25? did it contradict with abstaining from blood?

    (Matthew 16:25) For whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it.

    Thanks,

  • rootcause
    rootcause

    hello abaddon,

    on my latest reply with jgnat did it not answer your question?

    thanks,

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Relative acidity is not a vitamin.

    Not contradicting commands, but a heirarchy. Some override others. Like sanctity of life over the symbol of life. Or mercy over honoring the Sabbath.

    About the soul being in the blood. Ever heard of metaphor? The bible is full of them. No, another life given as a gift for mine is a beautiful thing, both for the giver and the receiver of life. I've given blood many times, and Jesus himself said everyone had to drink his blood to gain eternal life. Have you tainted your soul with Jesus' blood?

    (Matthew 16:25) For whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it.

    If you try and save your soul by following every letter of the law, but fail to show kindness to a stranger, will Jesus recognize you on that great day?

    Matthew 25:41 KJV Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

  • rootcause
    rootcause

    Hello jgnat,

    Are you saying ascorbic acid taken orally is far different than its intravenous form? are they not same ascorbic acid?

    You also did not answer my question Directly: did it not marriage is sacred? So, do want to see your husband with somebody or will your husband accept seeing you with another man?, and therefore Tainting the sacredness of your marriage?

    Did it not Jesus, mean a different thing? compare, also he mentioned pour. . .

    (Matthew 26:27-28) 27

    Also, he took a cup and, having given thanks, he gave it to them, saying: "Drink out of it, all of YOU; 28 for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.

    (Luke 22:20) 20

    Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.

    Is it not the mixing another soul in your soul tainting the sacredness of your life? (Genesis 2:7)

    Did the bible mentioned heirarchy with regards to blood? where?

    If you try and save your soul by following every letter of the law, but fail to show kindness to a stranger, will Jesus recognize you on that great day?-jgnat

    Why do you think? it was mentioned in (Matthew 7:21) “ Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.

    to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If YOU carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU!"

    Notice, eating were no longer written in Acts 15:29, will heirarchy be applied?

    Thanks,

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    rootcause

    No it did not, and you are continuing to show disrespect by not having the courtesy to even answer me directly; your continual evasion speaks volumes about your character. To think you have the gall to preach at us! Get your own house in order...

    It is very simple; the Bible shows there were circumstances where the consumption of blood was not punished by a death penalty, where it wasn't even required to make a report to a Priest...

    15 " 'Anyone, whether native-born or alien, who eats anything found dead or torn by wild animals must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be ceremonially unclean till evening; then he will be clean. 16 But if he does not wash his clothes and bathe himself, he will be held responsible.' "

    Leviticus 17 (NIV)

    Likewise, in practise, breaching the comandment to not eat blood did not result in automatic execution;

    31 That day, after the Israelites had struck down the Philistines from Micmash to Aijalon, they were exhausted. 32 They pounced on the plunder and, taking sheep, cattle and calves, they butchered them on the ground and ate them, together with the blood. 33 Then someone said to Saul, "Look, the men are sinning against the LORD by eating meat that has blood in it."
    "You have broken faith," he said. "Roll a large stone over here at once." 34 Then he said, "Go out among the men and tell them, 'Each of you bring me your cattle and sheep, and slaughter them here and eat them. Do not sin against the LORD by eating meat with blood still in it.' "
    So everyone brought his ox that night and slaughtered it there. 35 Then Saul built an altar to the LORD; it was the first time he had done this.

    1 Samuel 14 (NIV)

    ... no mention of anyone beiong "cut off from amongst the people" as per the comandment in the Mosaic Law.

    Jesus tells us the greatest comandment is to have love.

    The Mosaic Law was not absolute on the subject of eating blood;

    1. Animals found dead (and thus unbleedable) could be consumed with the only penalty being cerimonial uncleanliness until sundown.
    2. Exhausted soldiers who ate blood were not killed for it.

    Thus in our time for anyone to insist that taking a blood transfusion when faced with a high risk of death must result in someone being "cut off from amongst the people" by being disfellowshipped (or disassociated) is utter rubbish.

    It is just like the Pharisaical elboration to god's word that Jesus despised so much, it ignores Jesus council on love and the forgiving nature he showed to those that sinned.

    I will number the questions to make it easy for us to see whether you actually answer them or contiune this pathetic evasion of the issues being discussed.

    I have shown the Bible shows consumption of blood (even if it was not essential to save life) was not punished by death, even though other scriptures do outlaw its consumption and set penalties under normal circumstances.

    1/ Using the Bible show me how you can claim someone who has taken a blood transfusion to save their life can be punished as severely as they are by Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Remember, under Mosaic Law the punishment for eating an unbled animal found in the wild was a few hours of cerimonial uncleaniness, with no need to involve Priests.

    2/ How can the Elders today claim any right to be involved in the issue without going beyond what is written in the Bible?

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Stop asking me science questions. You don't know the first thing. If a dying cell becomes more alkaline, immersing it in acid will not revive it. You haven't shown that relative acidity is a symptom or a cause.

    I won't answer the marriage question because it is a tasteless analogy. My husband is a human being, not an organ.

    John 6:53 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

    ...

    66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

    Rootcause, you have still not shown me that acceptance of a blood transfusion is a command to be obeyed to the point of death. Do you at least accept that some commands are more important than others?

  • rootcause
    rootcause

    hello jgnat and abaddon,

    by the way before we continue our discussion. . .

    What is an Organization? please define. . .

    Thanks,

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Hi, rootcause. We are far away from our first discussion, blood. So I started a new thread for you. "What is an Organization"? I'll post my response there.

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/100099/1.ashx

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