Where Is The Ultimate Truth Found?

by JamesThomas 71 Replies latest jw friends

  • zen nudist
    zen nudist

    is there an ultimate truth?

    if you found one how could you really be sure?

    I know things which seem true to me now, but I dont know any way to tell if they would always be true under all circumstances...

    who does?

    the idea of an all knowing god who could tell such things is purely a matter o faith not fact....

    some questions seem to have no answer, but I have yet to find an answer I could not question.

    what is important to me is reality...

    and reality is what you can get away with. --Robert a Wilson.

  • Balsam
    Balsam

    I've come to view the divine as all around, all inside, and all unknowing.

    I look at those who continue to feel the bible, the Quran, the Torah and all other religious text as the answer and have great faith as scary. Because if that faith in what they believe, is knocked out from under them they scream as they free fall. Their screams scare me, because I remember how it felt when I free fell after leaving the witnesses. I didn't know and they don't know that they would be ok. There terror filled screams because of losing that faith that was so fragile in the first place.

    So facing the unknown, not understanding, or having any answers that are sure is pretty exciting. It opens the world of the possible.

  • trevor
    trevor

    Everything man-made thing in this world that we use was first a thought that had yet to manifest itself physically. The sidewalk, buildings, cars, books, furniture, bathroom………..

    It would be logical to assume that we were each a thought first too, along with all of nature. The whole of the universe, the result of a thought that had yet to manifest. As a part of that thought we are all united as a physical manifestation of the potential that was contained in that thought.

    But not thought as we are used to in our tiny carbon based brains that can only focus on one thing at a time. More of a sub-conscious multi-faceted omnipotent awareness. The kind of intelligence that quietly carries out thousands of tasks in our bodies every day, without our conscious awareness.

    To be aware of that type of consciousness is to be united consciously with the originating thought that pervades the whole universe. Truth is unity with that thought.

  • Rod P
    Rod P

    Perhaps the more we use concepts shrouded in words as the means to defining "Truth" the more we encapsulate ourselves with built-in biases and illusions. ("Always learning, but never coming to an accurate knowledge of the truth".)

    The more questions we answer, the more new questions appear behind those emerging answers. Of this, there seems to be no end.

    Eastern thought, which has been around for thousands of years, tries to explain everything as being part of a whole. Each one of us is like a drop in a cosmic ocean, and in the end we will reach Nirvana when we lose our individuality, our egotism, by becoming absorbed into that ocean.

    There is no separateness. Ego is the illusion that separates us, and the barrier that blinds us to the "truth". The Universe is like a giant web, where everything in it and comprising it is all inter-connected, so that everything affects everything else. Our purpose, then, is to become One with the Universe, or at least to become aware that we are all part of the "One" (At-one-ment).

    This is the world of the Mystics, the Guru's, the so-called Enlightened Ones. These are the ones who have spent their entire lives "tuning in" to the universe, in an exercise of experiencing the Universe as One, so that their own beings will become One with the One.

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    Western thought, on the other hand, likes to break the Universe up into smaller and smaller parts, and to measure everything. They have developed the Sciences, the Mathematics, the Technologies, the Vocabularies with which to comprehend this Universe in all its mind-numbing diversity and disparate parts. Theoretically, if they could just understand the nature and function of each of the parts, then they could understand the universe as a whole.

    Time and Space, into which our physical selves are immersed, are precisely what gives us that sense of separateness, that I am separate from you and that tree and that dog and that stone. We say and feel and perceive, "I am NOT that." Our physical sensory apparatus are the instruments thru which we perceive the Universe "out there".

    The Mystic tries to understand the universe holistically, including the notion that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. The Scientist tries to understand the universe from it parts, and then piece it all together as whole. I am not sure if they endorse the notion that the whole IS greater than the sum of its parts. (I suspect both yes and no.) In any event, I see the Mystic and the Scientist both trying to grasp reality, but merely from opposite ends of the same spectrum. That's why I think they should work together co-operatively, instead of being at cross-purposes, and discrediting each other so much of the time.

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    The various "Scriptures" from around the world (eg. the Bible, the Torah, the Quran, the Bhagavad- Gita, etc.) have been wrongly construed and used all along. Historically, they became instruments of power, control, abuse, and the perpetuation of ignorance and myth, in the hands of despotic religious and political authorities.

    IMHO, they should rather have been used as "tutorials", leading us inward, to the Spiritual Reality within. They should never have been positioned as "Rulebooks" and "Doctrines, Dogmas and Creeds". They should not have been utilized as justifications for wars and narrow-minded prejudices, death-sentences, ostracisms and the like. One could say that the "Scriptures" spelled the death-knells of "truth". The development of Creeds became the barriers to "truth", rather than the definition and explanation of it.

    I believe that within the pages of many Scriptures from diverse times and places around the world there are contained many useful and guiding principals, which, if understood correctly, would lead us individually to worlds within (ie. inner realities). In that sense, I guess you would have to "label" me as a "Mystic". So be it!........But at the same time, I have a lot of time and respect for the Sciences and Mathematics. I believe that both will end up at the same place in the end.

    To each their own. There can be no other way but each one travelling down one's own path to "truth". It is not a path of a straight line, for there are many twists and turns and changes of directions. It is more like a matrix, and we can run in any direction and still be there. It is not a path of destination and arrival, for we are not really going "somewhere". There is only the Beingness and the Isness of it all, and our becoming Awareness that is perpetual.

    In short, let's all just have fun, being what we already are!

    Rod P.

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas
    In short, let's all just have fun, being what we already are!

    Well rounded post Rod. That's what it's all about, this that "we already are!". That, which is the underlying reality, actuality, the ultimate-truth of what "we already are".

    It's not about spending a lifetime "tuning in", or becoming one with the One. We already are It. There is nowhere to go, nothing to evolve to, nothing to become, nothing to earn or acquire. It's just about seeing and realizing what is here ALREADY.

    Obviously expounding endlessly our beliefs about this subject, or our non-beliefs about this subject, are of little consequence. What good does it do to label this as "mysticism", or western thought, or eastern thought, or no thought at all thought? To label simply gives us a false sense we know what's going on, when we really have no clue.

    Is there a questioning attitude? Are we willing to honestly acknowledge that the sense of wholeness and peace we desire has so far eluded us? Are we willing to investigate within our own being at least to the degree we have studied the Bible, or science, or philosophies? Why are we so put off when someone points to us and says "you are infinitely more than you believe yourself to be, why not look and see"?

    Am I really and truly this broken shard of existence? Or is there a deeper Wholeness and Completeness that is going unseen? When all the mental beliefs and stories are gone, what is ultimately and fundamentally true regarding the consciousness which looks upon these words right now? What? What? What?

    j

  • poppers
    poppers

    "The reason is that truth is subject to understanding of the facts. Until all facts are known, there can be no ultimate truth. We have not even discovered all the facts about our own planet yet and there is an entire universe out there."

    James is pointing to that inexpressible 'something' (which is really no 'thing' at all) in which the mind arises. After mind arises out of this something/nothingness the mind catalogs and labels various things into 'facts'. The ultimate truth is the container of the relative truths of manifestation. Nothing within manifestation ever remains the same, and therefore cannot be ultimate truth - only that which never changes can be given that label (but don't mistake the label for truth itself).

    James is challenging each of us to discover directly for oneself this something/nothingness which is eternally here now, and which never can change, and which can be the only ultimate truth. It is beyond the mind, beyond time, and is the foundation upon which everything else depends - nothing can exist without it. The miracle of this is that this something/nothingness is your very nature, and because it is always here it is always available to be re-cognized if you are simply willing to look for it.

    You will never know ultimate truth, you can only be it.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    Now the door is open, the rational in place, that allows me to kill and harm others.

    Don't underestimate mankind. We can feel proud, get judgemental, harm, persecute and kill for the sake of any capitalised word -- be it "God," "Truth," "Democracy," "Human Rights" or "Belly Button".

    Any philosophy has to deal with both unity and difference ( to RodP on his analysis of the Eastern and Western approaches in this regard). Giving up either term as "unreal" is a wrong starting point imo.

  • Sunnygal41
    Sunnygal41

    Within oneself.

    "They who have light in themselves will not revolve as satellites." ~ Seneca

  • Sunspot
    Sunspot
    James is pointing to that inexpressible 'something' (which is really no 'thing' at all) in which the mind arises. After mind arises out of this something/nothingness the mind catalogs and labels various things into 'facts'. The ultimate truth is the container of the relative truths of manifestation. Nothing within manifestation ever remains the same, and therefore cannot be ultimate truth - only that which never changes can be given that label (but don't mistake the label for truth itself).

    James is challenging each of us to discover directly for oneself this something/nothingness which is eternally here now, and which never can change, and which can be the only ultimate truth. It is beyond the mind, beyond time, and is the foundation upon which everything else depends - nothing can exist without it. The miracle of this is that this something/nothingness is your very nature, and because it is always here it is always available to be re-cognized if you are simply willing to look for it.

    You will never know ultimate truth, you can only be it.

    I KNOW this makes sense---somehow, I guess. It just doesn't make sense.....to me.

    Annie

  • Markfromcali
    Markfromcali

    Are we confusing mysticism with mystical consciousness? If you know what I'm talking about, you know it's two very different things - and you know talking about it doesn't really get you anywhere when that consciousness has not been born. We sure don't control when that happens any more than we can talk a baby into being born or a kid into reaching puberty.

    Of course, we are all free to talk about whatever we want - the above is just for the sake of making the point. I mean I'm up for the discussion as much as the next guy, but when that hasn't really been established then it is only academic at best and misleading to the seeker at worst. Or probably more often it is just neither here nor there. Besides, you can talk about any number of other things and it can still happen, right?

    Mark, of the lazy mystic class

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