by Schizm 85 Replies latest watchtower bible
schizm
interesting! defintely food for thought.....thank you for that article.......ive always doubted this part, that those around in the last days, if they werent jws, would die at armageddon and not be resurrected. unlike those who died before who would have a chance. didnt seem fair somehow.
Holly,
I took a look at the thread where you said you'd been dumped by the lady that was studying with you. Let me give you a word of advice. Can I do so without you becoming hurt or offended? If I don't say something to you, knowing the things that I do, then I would be an uncaring person.
Although it's difficult for you to see at present, you were in contact with those whom God and Christ consider to be true worshipers. Of course those who post here will object to my telling you that, but that's because they've lost appreciation for the things they had learned as a direct result of the efforts of the WTS and its members.
If I were you, I'd make an attempt to renew your studies with the JW lady who had been studying with you. I can guarantee you that you'll fair much better doing that than if you spend your time listening to those here who are now opposers of the WTS. A large number of those who post here no longer even believe in the existence of God, and some of those who admit that there is a God don't believe that he inspired the Bible. Obviously, such ones can do nothing to build your faith in God and the Bible.
A bit about me: Although I no longer attend meetings, I still consider the WTS as being the right religion. I became stumbled a number of years ago over various doctrinal matters, the chief of which is the 1914 doctrine. You can probably appreciate the problem that creates for me with regards to meeting attendance. I fully anticipate the WTS ridding itself of the doctrinal flaws which stumble people. Actually, it has no choice but to do so.
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. You obviously have a lot to learn, and there's nobody better to help you with that than the lady you were studying with. Don't just be an inquisitor only though. And don't put yourself in the seat of the teacher. Remember, they came to you and not the other way around.
If you do decide to make an attempt at resuming the Bible study with the lady, in the process you will still be allowed to raise legitimate questions. I hope that you'll remember what I've pointed out in my opening comments in this thread, and present that to the lady. My reasoning is sound, and it's from the Bible ... something which she can't honestly ignore. You can get it done, if you're tactful and discreet.
Schizm
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Hi Schizm
thank you for your thoughts. im not offended. your post wasnt in any way offensive. as they say, 'its not what you say but the way you say it' and you said it fine - pity friend in need isnt less aggressive.
i understand what you are saying. you may think i was aggressive when i approached the woman i study with. i wasnt. although i did ask her a lot of questions which threw her as the week before id been really keen - so i can see why she was so ataken back. but she decided not to study with me. she decided i had 'too many questions and studying would be a waste of time at the current time'. she did say that if i found all my answers i could get back in touch. and she has since emailed me a couple of times to ask how im getting on. im sure if i asked i could go back to study with her, but that would be awkward. i would still have the desire to ask all these questions and she would tell me again i wasnt ready to study. i just expressed a lot of doubt and as id been studying for so long, i dont think she quite knew how to handle it.
i am a wee bit puzzled though. if you have left yourself, why would you encourage me to go back to a study? you obviously still believe but dont feel the need to be active. cant i just do the same? I was just pondering this last night actually, before I read your post this morning. I do believe what they taught me. it makes more sense than anything i have heard in church (if youve read some of my other stuff you will know i left the church bec i couldnt accept their concept of hell). i also dont buy into this 'believe in jesus and you are saved from your sins' stuff, especially by those who then continue to live exactly how they want, thinking they are saved anyway. dont get me wrong, i know many born again christians who daily exercise their faith and would put me to shame. even though i dont understand how they can reconcile themselves to some of the most unscriptural teachings of the church. but thats another subject.............
if i now believe what the jws believe (and assuming they are right about the bible) but just choose not to get involved in the organisation, am i saved? big question. but handy to ask it of someone who still believes their teachings but has withdrawn from involvement of the org.
holly
i am a wee bit puzzled though. if you have left yourself, why would you encourage me to go back to a study? you obviously still believe but dont feel the need to be active. cant i just do the same?
Mainly because of the exposure that it would give you. Perhaps you've had more exposure to the Bible than what I realize, but I had imagined you as being a person who is still learning the basics about the Bible and the reasons for which the WTS believes some of the things it does. Too, by being in regular contact with those who sincerely regard the Bible as being God's written Word you are more likely to gain an appreciation for it yourself. Then there's also the fact that when we come face to face with another person whom we don't see eye to eye with on a certain point, but unknowingly we're not really being true to ourselves, it creates a problem for our conscience in such a way that we're forced to either be dishonest or admit we were wrong. And it works the same way with both parties, that is, both you and the one whom is studying with you.
you obviously still believe but dont feel the need to be active. cant i just do the same?
I actually DO feel the need to be active. It's just that I'm PREVENTED from being active because I cannot conscientiously teach others what I don't believe myself. Since the 1914 doctrine is central to the beliefs of the WTS, and I'm persuaded that it's a defective teaching, my being active becomes an impossibility. Insofar as you doing the same, I think that you're putting the cart before the horse. You likely have too much to learn yet before things get that serious.
if i now believe what the jws believe (and assuming they are right about the bible) but just choose not to get involved in the organisation, am i saved?
Saved? You mean as in having gained everlasting life? If that's what you mean by the term "saved" then you need to understand that only the 144,000 will have qualified for that prize during their present life-span. All others will have qualified for receiving that prize by the end of the 1000-year reign of Christ. But, I will say that if you're not doing what you can reasonably do right now that you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. What we all need the most is life, life that lasts, because we are all slowly dying. The question for you to ask yourself is, "Do I have a good reason for not getting involved in the Organization?"
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Perhaps you've had more exposure to the Bible than what I realize
Hey Schizm
Ive had a life time of exposure from the bible, from being a child and being brought up in church. i gave it up about 7 years ago. went back a couple of years ago for a few weeks, but couldnt stomach the jumping up and down in the aisles, laying on of hands, speaking in tongues and being told i would go to hell if i didnt believe in the risen Christ. ive seen some pretty strange things in churches over the years - which they say is spiritual stuff - figured i wasnt spiritual enough and left.
studying with the jws i was taught many things the same and a few different things. i had an 18 months study, once a week, so leave you to work out my probable knowledge. oh and ive been to kh maybe 10 times. ive also known some bad jws who get up to stuff when no ones looking.
By 'am i saved' i wasnt talking about heaven. i just meant was i safe from destruction? i havent been baptised and according to the woman i studies with, that means im not 'safe'. but the bible doesnt say it is baptism that saves you. i thought jesus did that and baptism was an outward sign of confession of faith.
You still puzzle me a bit. you believe what the jws teach. you want to be active. but cant bec of their teaching on 1914. but you obviously think the rest is good enough to be there and the jws have got the truth. is that right? so the 1914 issue hasnt actually changed your views that they have the truth? only that they may be misguided over this point. same as i think they may be misguided over armageddon and who will actually survive, just by working out the justice of it. you see i worked out the church were wrong about hell myself, before i studied with the jws. at that time, i didnt know what jws believed about hell. because it says god is a god of justice. so much so, he executed his own judgement upon himself in sending jesus, the perfect man, to replace the imperfect adam. perfect logic. so a god that did that would condemn a human to overlasting torture for 70 years of wrongdoing ??- justice? i think not.so those scriptures about everlasting torture cannot posibly mean what they say unless the bible is absolute rubbish. i personaly dont think it is.
sorry i digress. i have to go to work.
so are you suggesting i resume study, but disbelieve the 1914 bit? actually, why do you think that is wrong? its still feasibly possible in terms of time scale. if jws believe some of the born again will still be on the earth when armageddon happens, it is still poss in terms of human age, that some are alive. but there will come a time, if it doesnt happen soon, they will have to come up with a diff theory.
holly
Gumby said: Schizm's a big fat chicken liver. He dodged my question to him concerning his comments comparing God killing babies
Gumby that's putting it mildly.......I got into it with Schizm on another post http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/83404/3.ashx
don't expect an answer from Schizm on Saterday mornings. He spends his saterdays at yard sales trying to pursuade witnesses to listen to him and his newfound ideas. Then he goes home and pops a few mushrooms, then he comes here..... Poor sick bastard.
ROFLMFAO!! Ya and the moron probably counts it all as "time" on his Service Report!! The guy's desperate for attention cause he keeps coming back for more, no matter how stupid he makes himself look.............
Mary,
You are going to cuss a little for me now, aren't you. You're one of the worst I've seen when it comes to having a foul mouth.
Ya and the moron probably counts it all as "time" on his Service Report!!
Which mirrors the lack of attention you paid in the other thread you posted the URL to. If you'd been paying attention to what I said to Holly, just a comment or two back, you'd have noticed me saying that I'm not actively associated with Jehovah's Witnesses, and that I don't even attend meetings.
You poor soul, you! Is there any hope at all for you. You're so full of pride, jealousy, and hate that you can't even function properly.
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Good ta see ya back Schizm!! Did they give you a day pass this time??
Holly,
so are you suggesting i resume study, but disbelieve the 1914 bit?
That's not my decision to make. However, it will be yours when the time comes.
actually, why do you think that is wrong?
I don't believe that the things that have happened in the world since 1914 have produced the right results in order to fulfill Jesus' prophecy there in Matthew 24:7. Jesus' prophecy has yet to be fulfilled.
its still feasibly possible in terms of time scale.
The year 1914 is not a Biblical date, as I once thought that it was. It has absolutely nothing at all to do with Bible prophecy. It therefore has nothing to do with any so-called "time scale".
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The WTS's website says:
Soon [Jesus] will hurl the beast, its kings, and its armies into "the fiery lake that burns with sulphur," a symbol of complete destruction.-- Quoted from an article on the WTS's website, under the subheading "God's Kingdom—Mankind's Only Hope". http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2004/4/1/article_02.htm
Our Kingdom Ministry March 1968 p.4 says:
The majority of people living today will probably be alive when Armageddon breaks out, and there are no resurrection hopes for those who are destroyed then. So, now more than ever, it is vital not to ignore that spirit of wanting to do more.
Now compare the above with what the Bible says:
1 9 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage the war with the one seated on the horse and with his army. 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who render worship to its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur. 21 But the rest [i.e. the kings and their armies] were killed off with the long sword of the one seated on the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth. And all the birds were filled from the fleshy parts of them.--Revelation 19:19-21.
To repeat what I said in my initial comments on page 1 of this thread:
From the above scripture it's plain that the only 2 things that are thrown into the lake of fire (a symbol of everlasting destruction) is: 1) the wild beast and 2) the false prophet. Insofar as the kings and their armies, in addition to all those who will have accepted the mark (the majority of mankind), that they are NOT destroyed forever is attested to by the fact that they aren't thrown into the lake of fire along with the 2 mentioned. Yes, the scripture says that they will be "killed" but not thrown into the lake of fire. Their not being thrown into the lake of fire can mean only one thing--that they are not destroyed forever. Which, of course, can only mean one thing--those who die at Armageddon definitely have a chance of being resurrected.
It's therefore a proven fact that: Both the Watchtower and "You Know" (aka Watchman) are wrong, wrong, WRONG!
Schizm
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