I'm tired too, teejay. I started to respond to Thi Chi, but I'm just too weary. It's obvious he didn't even read what I posted. What's especially amusing is that the article I excerpted draws deeply on the USCRC's report, which I did read. Not so sure Thi Chi did though, since the commission's report concludes that there was voter disenfranchisement. I guess some people will do whatever it takes to obfuscate the facts, huh?
roy batty, there's a link in my post to the article. It was originally published in the October edition of Vanity Fair.
Blacks and Voting
by Mecurious? 92 Replies latest social current
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hemp lover
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ThiChi
""report concludes that there was voter disenfranchisement""
Because it says so, it is?
The fact of the matter is that the Commission, ran by Democrats, refused to release the evidence that supports the claim. Can?t we agree that the evidence is important? Can you name one name of a Disenfranchised black? Please? Of the two examples cited in the report, one can see that it did not even qualify as an example.
I did read your post and the information. I rebutted....did you read the information posted? Agian:There was bureaucratic bungling.But Republicans were not the only ones who stumbled; in all but one of the 25 counties with voter problems, local Democrats supervised the elections. Facts you cannot dispute.
I am tired too...of no proof!!
""What happened in Florida in 2000 is some voters spoiled their ballots, voting for two candidates or not making a discernible mark on their ballot. This happens in every election, but these mistakes were magnified in Florida because of the scrutiny that came with Bush's 500-vote margin. Estimates the rate of spoilage in Florida at roughly 3 percent.
That is similar to the 2.6 percent rate in 1996, when Democrats failed to scream about disenfranchisement. The spoilage rate in heavily Democratic Chicago in 2000 was almost 6 percent, double that of Florida. The sad fact is, ballots tend to be spoiled more in low-income areas (white or black), areas where many people haven't graduated high school, and areas where there are a large number of first-time voters.
Democrats took this sociological datum, which applies everywhere around the country, and spun from it a conspiracy theory in Florida ? blacks were kept from voting, "disenfranchised." The first problem with this feverish notion is that the county supervisors who conduct the elections and would have had to do all the disenfranchising in the black areas with high rates of spoilage were almost all Democrats.
The more specific allegations of attempts to disenfranchise blacks are paranoid urban legend. No one has produced any evidence of the dogs and hoses some activists have said were used to keep blacks from the polls ? and if Bull Connor had really been loose in Florida, people would have noticed. Another allegation involves the so-called "felon purge list," which was meant to keep felons from voting. It had significant errors and hindered some legitimate voters at the polls, but the list wasn't a deliberate racist act. According to The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, 42 percent of the people on the list were black. But 48 percent of convicted felons in Florida are black. It turned out that roughly 6,000 felons correctly on the list were allowed to vote illegally anyway.""
I agree!!
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roybatty
roy batty, there's a link in my post to the article. It was originally published in the October edition of Vanity Fair
Thanks, I'll check it out. IMO - it can be debated 'til the end of time, just like Mayor Richard Daley of Chicago won the the 1960 presidential election for JFK. I'm sure after the 2004 election there will be lawsuits and alligations. It's a never ending cycle. Whether or not Bush engaged in dirty politics is open for argument. Like they say here in Chicago "vote early, vote often."
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JT
If the number of Black voters in the state that were disenfranchised were allowed to vote Gore would have won Florida handily.
######33
Bush won by 500+ votes, ------ do you know how many black folks were actully able to vote but didn't ??????
I just love when i hear the word "disenfranchised" - talk to an older black person like my granddad who used to get spat upon by white kids riding the bus while he was walking- yet he has never missed an election----
the problem with blacks today is eveyone wants to tell the story of how "whitey" did them wrong, nothing wrong with that cause most blacks can indeed tell the story including myself, but to keep BI**&ing and MOANING ABOUT whitey "Ain't" helping the cause -
when one looks at the data of black wealth it is embaraasing to see how much $$$$$ flows thru our hands and communities- we can find the Phat Farm, Tommy wear- Cognac, the Esclades, and every hip hop song around, yet when it comes to the more important things we fail to step up to the plate-
this is the question i pose to any black person when i have this conversation and i given this speech all over washington dc to different groups and org and schools-
- for the sake of arguement-- let;s say we can blame "whitey" for our problems, then that means "until" THE MAN decides he wants to change his ways and help us we up creek!!!!!!!!!!!!
well i don't believe that black folks have to wait till the man decides to help us and this is the reason why-
my granddad always told us kids there are 2 things in life,
1. things you can't control
2 things you can-
well black folks can't make a white person like them, all they can do is work to help remold thier thinking and mindset but in the end that is up to them
but there are things that black folks can control and it is THESE THINGS THAT we fail to do, it is a two prong approach
work to influence things one can't control and fully control things that one can.
I spoke to a group once and i told them as black folks WE WEAR AND DRIVE OUR -- "A$$"ets, while our white counter part and now even latinos DON'T-
these are things that we can control-
here in wash dc we have BET headquatered, when bob johnson started out he tried to program real drama shows, black folks didnt like that, so he switch over to BOOOTY SHAKING VIDEOS and black folks ate it up along with infomericals-
SO afterawhile he sold it and cashed out to the tune of 1 billion dollars- he was interviewed about that and how he went to churches all over wash dc and other cities , he tried to get well to do blacks and plain folks offering $1000 to be a partner -
told folks make it a family thing
get $250 from uncle joe, $250 from aunt sallie and $500 from cousin Pookey and combine it as a family and invest the $1000 into BET- folks laughed in his face
Tim Reid from WKRP in Cinn and his wife dropped in millions and it got off the ground and they cashed out to the tune of 10's of millions
if you live in wash dc one will see not ONE , NOT 2-- BUT 3 spanish channels with REAL SHOWS, NEWS= SPORTS, AND ENTERTAINMENT-
and now that black folks have been out numbered by spanish folks , blacks will continue to be even more marginalized - for a group that carries the democratic party one would expect to see black folks wielding tremdous power in the democratic party, YET THEY DO NOT
case in point, i live in one of the wealthest black areas in the USA Prince Georges county outside DC --Only Atlanta comes the closest t the amount of black wealth
we have in the state of md a white govornor- after leaviing wt i got involved in politics somewhat , i used my wt speaking skills to give me an edge-
Cathleen Townsend who is a member of the JFK family was runnning for gov , she was asked by the black political machinery to put a black on the ticket WE WERE TOLD___________- " IT AIN'T TIME YET"-------
the rep picked up on it and put a black dude named Steele on the ticket and they won- it was amazing how Steele influence the black vote here and the REp won over a lot of democrates-
my next door neighbor is the master politician, he ran as a rep for local office, even though he about rep as my big toe,, he was the only one running on the rep tick- on the demo tick 9 folks were trying for office from a black guy who has been there since what seems like the 60's he came out of the civil rights movement got elected and has been ever since-
after the primaries he was left standing to debate this long time politican, during the election he got blown out of the water,he only got like 1 or 2 %-
but as he told me JACE it all about NAME RECONITION- ABOUT 4 MONTHS LATER he got a call while in the yard, his wife yell THE GOVERNOR OFFICE IS ON THE PHONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
he pick up the phone as was told = this is so and so CHIEF OF STAFF FOR THE GOV-
they offered him an appointed position - and today he has-- the black crown victory car, a staff of 7 and he is a DEPUTY UNDERSEC in one of the dept in the state of md - and the best part he is about as rep as my big toe
as he told me just recently jace it all about knowing how the GAME IS PLAYED
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Mecurious?
the problem with blacks today is eveyone wants to tell the story of how "whitey" did them wrong, nothing wrong with that cause most blacks can indeed tell the story including myself, but to keep BI**&ing and MOANING ABOUT whitey "Ain't" helping the cause
Boy, as much as it hurts me to admit it this is the pure unadulterated truth. The people that I mentioned at the begining of this post (my friends) all make over $60,000 a year. All have a college education with maybe the exception of one. Yet for some strange reason they aren't going to vote.
Imho, this is in part what really divides the black community. Not the voting per se; but the inability to come to any concensus or being able to develope long terms goals. Constantly blaming yet not taking responsibility for their actions.
Teejay talked earlier about ownership, blacks still lag behind just about every other group except indians in terms of econonomic prosperity.
Some blacks make it and forget where they come from. Others get caught in the struggle of the day to day stress's invloved in living in a racist soceity. The few who actually make it through sometimes become angry at those who seem unable to help themselves, while forgetting how they themselves struggled. I have a friend who became a millionaire in the short (or long depending on how you look at it) order of eight years. It was a very fascinating thing to witness. He sometimes didn't get any sleep, was hospitilized and was even divorced had to raise two kids by himself. He, although being very intelligent had a very difficult time and he still works his ass off.
And, yes hes black. It can be done. We all have to be personally reponsible for ourselves. Most of us here will witness the day when the races become so intermingled that the only real thing that will matter is ability and character not skin color.
I have a dream........
M'
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bigboi
Come to Chicago and I'll take you to the public housing complexes like the Robert Taylor Homes. Then tell me if you'd want to live there. I believe you wouldn't.
There's no need to do that Roy....I actually grew up in a housing project. I think I know a little bit about what people go through who live in such an area.
You're trying to put words into my mouth. I'm not at all saying that there isn't a need to level the playing field. What I am saying is after spending billions of dollars on programs for the last 35 years, the result has been a pile of shit. The manner in which this money has been spent takes away a persons dignity and that's why we have the problems we do today.
I don't think I was 'trying to put words in your mouth'. You brought up MLK and implied that he believed 'thus and so'. I just showed you how wrong you are. -
bigboi
What I implied was a man willing to be self-sacrificing as compared to many (most?) of todays self-proclaimed black leaders (at least the ones seen on tv). I already gave you two example, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. I'll give you a third one, Barack Obama. He's the new poster child for the democrats. He's going to win the U.S. sentate race here in Illinois. He seems like a good enough man, and even has some good ideas. He plays up this "oh I'm helping the poor black folks on the south side...blah blah blah." And "education is the most important issue facing us here in Illinois." Well, guess where HIS kids go to school? The best dam private school in the city of Chicago. That's what I'm talking about. His words say one thing but his actions say something else. His actions say "those public schools are good enough for your kids but not for mine." Yet, he'll get 99% of the black vote. You don't see any thing wrong with that? I'm not saying that this is really any differnt then what a George Bush or John Kerry does but half the white people in the US are telling either canidate to f*ck off. Why doesn't this happen toward black leaders? Recently Jesse Jackson was caught diverting funds (donations) from his RAINDOW / PUSH organization to his girlfriend whom he knocked up. Nothing happened to him. Just a big "oh well, shit happens." Then he turns around, does another rally and racks in millions from the very people he's suppose to be helping. And he's the one who "delivers" the black vote? How wrong is that? I would find that very insulting.
Regarding MLK, for every right-winger who butchers MLK's words, I'll give you a person who believes that based solely on the color of his skin he alone has the right to talk about MLK. I never said I was an expert on the life and teachings of MLK, nor am I an expert on any other historical figure such as JFK or any other American I'm proud of. But that doesn't mean that I can't reference them so give it a rest already because cutting and pasting web site information doesn't make you an expert either.
I'm glad you've taken this opportunity to getyour disdain for certain black 'leaders' off your chest. I know boards like these can be awfully theraputic in that way. Now, what exactly do these people have to do with Black voting patterns? They may have a large 'black' following, but they hardly represent EVERY black person. Why do you think most Black people vote Democrat instead of Republican?
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ThiChi
""If the number of Black voters in the state that were disenfranchised were allowed to vote Gore would have won Florida handily.""
If every overseas ballot was counted, Armed Services and Private Citizen, Bush would have won by even a larger margin...
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bigboi
Bush won by 500+ votes, ------ do you know how many black folks were actully able to vote but didn't ??????
No, I don't, but I'm sure you do. What does that have to do with anything? It doesn't matter who stayed home. What matters is the people who actually showed up and were not allowed to excercise their right to vote.
the problem with blacks today is eveyone wants to tell the story of how "whitey" did them wrong, nothing wrong with that cause most blacks can indeed tell the story including myself, but to keep BI**&ing and MOANING ABOUT whitey "Ain't" helping the cause -
when one looks at the data of black wealth it is embaraasing to see how much $$$$$ flows thru our hands and communities- we can find the Phat Farm, Tommy wear- Cognac, the Esclades, and every hip hop song around, yet when it comes to the more important things we fail to step up to the plate-
There you go again. No one in this thread blamed "whitey" for anything.
That's true. The people who showed up to vote in Florida and were prevented from doing so had no control over what they could do then. However this time around people are doing what they can by using various means to ensure there won't be repeat of that fiasco. Complaining about being denied your right to vote is not blaming whitey.my granddad always told us kids there are 2 things in life,
1. things you can't control
2 things you can-
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ThiChi
Bigboli: I am still waiting to hear your responce on your Reagan claim.....
""That's true. The people who showed up to vote in Florida and were prevented from doing so had no control over what they could do then. However this time around people are doing what they can by using various means to ensure there won't be repeat of that fiasco. Complaining about being denied your right to vote is not blaming whitey."""
One real example, please??? Names, dates? Or, are you getting your information from your "Reagan" source? lol
XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX SUN NOV 19, 2000 19:31:42 ET XXXXX
RELEASED: DEMOCRAT MEMO ON HOW TO DISQUALIFY MILITARY VOTES
**World Exclusive**
The DRUDGE REPORT has obtained -- and is now releasing worldwide -- a memo
circulated to Democrats throughout Florida detailing how to disqualify
overseas military ballots!
MORE
It's been talked about. It's been flashed on TV. But now only the DRUDGE
REPORT can bring you the full text.
Mark Herron, a Tallahassee lawyer helping shepherd Democratic presidential
election lawsuits through the local courts, sent the five-page letter to
Democratic attorneys across Florida giving them tips on how to lodge
protests against the ballots which heavily favored Republican George W.
Bush.
Bush comfortably won Florida's overseas absentee vote by 1,380 votes to
Vice-President Al Gore's 750 but, after vigorous challenges by Gore
canvassers, 1,527 of the postal ballots, many of them from soldiers and
sailors on active service, were rejected using Herron's bluprint.
Gen Norman Schwarzkopf led Republican condemnation of a five-page guide
which advised Democratic tellers how to raise objections to the postal
votes.
He said: "It is a very sad day in our country when the men and women of the
armed forces are serving abroad and facing danger of a daily basis . . . and
are denied the right to vote for the president of the United States who will
be their commander in chief."
The 5-page memo as obtained by the DRUDGE REPORT:
Date: November 15, 2000
To: FDP Lawyer
From: Mark Herron
Subject: Overseas Absentee Ballot Review and Protest
State and Federal law provides for the counting of "absentee qualified
electors overseas" ballots for 10 days after the day of the election or
until November 17, 2000. Sections 101.62(7)(a), Florida Statutes defines as
"absentee qualified elector overseas" to mean members of the Armed Forces
while in the service, members of the merchant marine of the United States
and other citizens of the United States, who are permanent residents of the
states and are temporarily residing outside of the territories of the United
States and the Districts of Columbia. These "absent qualified electors
overseas" must also be qualified and registered as provided by law.
You are being asked to review these overseas absentee ballots to make a
determination whether acceptance by the supervisor of elections and/or the
county canvassing board is legal under Florida law. A challenge to these
ballots must be made prior to the time that the ballot is removed from the
mailing envelope. The specific statutory requirement for processing the
canvass of an absentee ballot including of overseas absentee ballot, are set
forth in Section 101.62(2) (c)2. Florida Statutes:
If any elector or candidate present believes that an absentee ballot is
illegal due to a defect apparent on the voter's certificate, he or she may
at anytime before the ballot is removed from the envelope, file with the
canvassing board a protest against the canvcass of the ballot specifying the
precinct, the ballot, and the reason he or she believes the ballot to be
illegal. A cahllenge based upon a defect in the voterOs certificate may not
be accepted after the ballot has been removed from the mailing envelope.
The form of the voter's certificates on the absentee ballot is set forth in
section 101.64(1), Florida Statutes. By statutory provisions, only overseas
absentee ballots mailed with an APO, PPO, or foreign postmark shall be
considered a ballot. See Section 101.62(7)(c). Florida Statutes.
In reviewing these ballots you should focus on the following:
1. Request for overseas ballots: Determine that the voter affirmatively
requested an overseas ballot, and that the signature on the request for an
overseas ballot matches the signature of the elector on the registration
books to determine that the elector who requested the overseas ballot is the
elector registered. See Section 101.62(4)(a), Florida Statutes.
2. The voter's signature: The ballot envelope must be signed by the
voter. The signature of the elector as the voter's certificate should be
compared with the signature of the elector of the signature on the
registration books to determine that the elector who voted by ballot is the
elector registered. See Section 101.68(c)x, Florida Statutes.
3. The ballot is properly witnessed: The absentee ballot envelope must
be witnessed by a notary or an attesting witness over the age of eighteen
years. You may note that these requirements vary from the statutory language
from the Section 101.68(2)(c)1, Florida Statutes. Certain statutory
requirements in that section were not proclaimed by the Justice Department
pursuant to Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act, Sec. DE 98-13.
4. The ballot is postmarked: With respect to absentee ballots mailed by
absolute qualified electors overseas only those ballots mailed with an APO,
PPO, or foreign postmark shall be considered valid. See Section101.62(7)(c),
Florida Statutes. This statutory provision varies from rule 15-2.013(7),
Florida Administrative Code, which provides overseas absentee ballots may be
accepted if "postmarked or signed and dated no later than the date of the
federal election."
5. The elector has not already voted (duplicate ballot). In some
instances, an absent qualified elector overseas may have received two
absentee ballots and previously submitted another ballot. No elector is
entitled to vote twice. (Please insert appropriate Fl. xxx.)
To assist your review, we have attached the following:
1. A review Federal Postal regulations relating to FPO's and PPO's.
2. A protest form to be completed with respect to each absentee ballot
challenged.
3. Overseas Ballot Summary of Definitions.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Revised
Overseas Ballot Summary of Definitions
There are 3 different types of overseas ballots that are valid for return at
the counties provided they are postmarked on or before November 7th.
1. Federal Write-In ballot
a.. Must be an overseas voter and must be eligible to vote and be
registered under State law.
b.. Must have affirmatively requested an absentee ballot in writing and
completely filled out request (including signature)
c.. Must comply with State laws applying to regular absentee ballots
(such as registration requirements, notification requirements, etc.)
d.. Ballot contains only Federal races, and is considered to be a
"backup" system if the regular state absentee ballot fails to arrive.
e.. The intent of the voter in casting the ballot should govern. In
other words, minor variations in spelling candidate or party names should be
disregarded in ballot counting so long as the intention of the voter can be
ascertained.
f.. Must be postmarked as an APO, FPO, or MPO in a foreign country or at
a foreign post office.
2. Florida Advance Ballot
g.. Sent out in advance of a regular General Election ballot with state
and Federal candidates listed.
h.. Must be an overseas voter and must be eligible to vote and be
registered under State law.
i.. Must comply with State laws applying to regular absentee ballots
(such as registration requirements, notarization requirements, etc.)
j.. Must have affirmatively requested an absentee ballot in writing and
completely filled out request (including signature)
k.. Sent prior to the second (or October) primary elections to all
permanent overseas registered voters.
l.. Must comply with all State laws regarding signatures, witness
requirements, etc.
m.. Must be postmarked at the APO, FPO or MPO in a foreign country or at
a foreign post office.
3. Regular Overseas Ballot
n.. Sent after the second (or October) primary elections to all
permanent overseas registered voters and voters requesting an overseas
ballot from the county.
o.. Must be an overseas voter and must be eligible to vote and be
registered under State law.
p.. Must comply with State laws applying to regular absentee ballots
(such as registration requirements, notarization requirements, etc.)
q.. Must have affirmatively requested an absentee ballot in writing and
completely filled out request (including signature)
r.. Full ballot with all candidates listed.
s.. Likely would take precedence over any advance or federal ballot also
returned.
t.. Must comply with all State laws regarding signatures, witness
requirements, etc.
u.. Ballot is designed by the county.
v.. Must be postmarked at an APO, FPO, or MPO in a foreign country or at
a foreign post office.
Below are the definitions for points of origin and postmark that are valid
for military overseas ballots:
1. APO (Army Post Office) -- A branch of the designated USPS civilian post
office, which falls under the jurisdiction of the postmaster of either New
York City or San Francisco, that serves either Army or Airforce personnel.
2. FPO (Fleet Post Office) -- A branch of the designated USPS civilian post
office, which falls under the jurisdiction of the postmaster of either New
York City or San Francisco, that serves Coast Guard, Navy, or Marine Corps
personnel.
3. MPO (Military Post Office) -- A branch of a U.S. civil post office,
operated by the Army, Navy, Airforce, or Marine Corps to serve military
personnel overseas or aboard ships.
4. Military Post Office Cancellation -- A postmark that contains the post
office name, state, ZIP Cope, and month, day, and year that the mail xxx was
cancelled.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Protest of Overseas Absentee Ballot
As provided in Section 101.68(2)(c)(2), Florida Statutes. I, as an elector
in __________ County, Florida, hereby protest against the canvass of the
overseas absentee ballot described below:
County: ____________________________________________________
Precinct: __________________________________________________
The Ballot: ________________________________________________
Name of Voter: _____________________________________________
Address of Voter: __________________________________________
Reason for rejection: ______________________________________
___ Lack of voter signature
___ Lack of affirmative request for absentee ballot
___ Request for absentee ballot not fully filled out
___ Signature on absentee ballot request does not match signature on
registration card or on ballot
___ Voter signature on envelope does not match signature on registration
card
___ Inadequate witness certification
___ Late postmark (indicate date of actual postmark)
___ Domestic postmark (including Puerto Rico, Guam, etc.)
___ No postmark
___ Voter had previously voted in this election
___ Other
__________________________________
Signature of Person Filing Protest
__________________________________
Print Name
11/15/00
-----------------------------------------------------------
Filed By Matt Drudge
Reports are moved when circumstances warrant
http://www.drudgereport.com for updates
(c)DRUDGE REPORT 2000
Not for reproduction without permission of the author