by Corvin 80 Replies latest jw friends
(((((Corvin)))))
With all you're dealing with lately, it's no wonder you're upset. Best of luck to you, and best wishes to your daughter, hope she is feeling much better. I know it's hard, but even as you picket the hall, try not to let the smirky elders rile you- you're so much better than them.
There is a line in A Course in Miracles that goes "that which you defend against you make real to your own mind." The only way out is to forgive them. Not the kind of forgiveness that the JWs teach, the overlooking of an imagined wrong, but the kind that realizes that the perfect child of God that you are is untouched by anything that has occured on this plane of existence. Jesus warned us not to judge others "lest we be judged".
Sorry Navigator, I can't agree with that. I don't know alot about Corvin's background, but it sounds like he or his daughter was abused by someone in the congregation and I for one do not believe in just forgiving someone for that, especially seeing as they aren't even saying "sorry".
Corvin, I say POWER TO YA!! You keep up that picketing man, cause it sounds like you're really starting to rattle their feathers. Of course Dubs are going to yell "It's all lies!" because that's what they've been told by the powers that be. It satisfies most of them because it doesn't shake up their "spiritual paradise" ........to alot of Dubs, the idea that their holier-than-thou-Organization-approved-by-Jehovah, could possibly be covering up something as horrific as pedophilia, is too much for most of them......it'd be like a child finding out Mickey Mouse is a pedophile.
Perhaps if these people at the KH see Corvin on a regular basis, it might make some of them start to wonder if they've been told the whole truth.
I like "A Course in Miracles" but..........
I like the example of Madame DuBarry BETTER!
During the French Revolution, blood and horror flowed freely. Aristocrats, guilty or innocent, were publically executed
amidst cheering crowds. This got worse and worse until Madame DuBarry was guillotined. She was known to be a kind,
charitable person and she screamed and writhed while being dragged to be killed. The whole spectacle was so awful
that even the bloodthirsty crowds became ashamed. This is said to have led to a decline in the murderous course
of the Revolution.
The moral here?
Would the Watchtower Society get away with its abuse of human rights, its concealment of child molesters,
its enforced breakup of families, and its endless deceptions IF EVERYONE KICKED UP A FUSS ABOUT IT?
Suppose every disfellowshipping ended up in a brawl so that the police had to called in? Suppose every parent
of a child molested by another Witness in the congregation became loud and hysterical about it?
Madame DuBarry did not die in vain. She showed all of us that making a hysterical mess of things can be quite
rational - when you're dealing with irrational, heartless people - as Witnesses are trained to be.
metatron
Do you know anything about Navigator, or did you just lash out as someone who you felt was ignorant of who you are, and who had a contrary opinion to yours?
Littletoe, navigator might want to just come out and say what he means. If he disagrees, that is fine. I in turn get to say what I think of what he thinks. Free speech, remember? While Navigator was implying that I am "projecting" my own "guilt" on to the JW?s, I could also take it that Navigator was doing some "projecting" of his own. I simply will not listen to it.
You do appear to have a lot of pent up anger or maybe just frustration, which at another time I seem to recall got you barred from this board for a short period.
Frustrated? No. Littletoe, I am pissed. Frustration is only for those with no plan or course of action to get results. Frustration is for those waiting for a mental break-through. I have already had my break-through and it is my channeled anger that pulls me along. BTW, I had my membership suspended for a tiff with a mod. It is my understaning or impression that me and that mod have grown to understand where and where not to tread with respects to eachother. I like and respect that mod very much. It works.
On the other hand, two things come to mind - you are in the midst of legal action involving your child, and so now is NOT the time to do anything that might be perceived as irrational or excessive, by judiciaries.
I am on record as being supportive of my children?s Bible education. All evidence indicates that I have actually encouraged the children to keep studying and going to meetings. I am on record with the courts that I "share the same religion as mother, but father?s rules seem to be much more reasonable and closer to the norm". (Family Law Court Mediator wrote this to the judge concerning me.) Consider that it was my rational state of mind that enabled me to out-maneuver an experienced family law attorney and gain physical custody of them in the first place without any legal training or representation. What I am doing now tends to shine the spotlight on their irrational behavior and puts them all on the defensive which, as we all know, a JW makes some really dumb mistakes and begins to trip up on their own lies when "defending" their irrational behavior. Add up the prior documented abuse, mother?s lies exposed and failure to comply with the judge?s orders, the children?s own written testimony, their reluctance to go to meetings and be part of the religion, mom and step-dad?s coercive tactics, two suicide attempts, cover-up and failure to report child abuse and we suddenly understand why dad is so passionate in speaking out. They have shown to the courts that they have been taking swipes at my kids? jugulars and mine for years now. It cannot be ignored. See what I?m saying?
Whoa back Corvin. Navigator is a great guy who simply has a different perspective on this matter. His post was not a personal attack on you, he just offered a different opinion. You went way over the top on this one. Wait until you meet the man, then your opinion of his post will, no doubt, change. BugI was merely pointing out why his "opinion" is flawed to such a degree that if I were to listen, I would lose this fight. I?m sure Navigator does not want me to lose, but . . .
Whilst I admire the guts it takes to do such things, I also think that you're doing the wrong thing by picketing. This is just my opinion of course. I think that your ex can use this against you by saying you are fanatical about JWs and that this is clouding your judgement (or some such other thing she might think of, with her 100's of witnesses to your behaviour outside their church....this would look strange to a judge because judges generally won't understand your involvement and the problems with the JWs)
Believe me when I say that even the tiniest, most insignificant word or action on my part has been twisted and used against the kids and me that picketing can only be seen as the natural course of things. They have expected me to just sit there and take it . . . to let them do or say whatever they want and just keep quiet. They have counted on that for far too long and it is time to get in people?s faces. It is time to speak the truth.
just following on from what sirona mentioned, during my court battles over access to my little girl, my ex tried to use my being a JW as one of the reasons for not allowing me access (she knew I wasn't one - had stopped before we met). It backfired, the judge said that he would not stand for religious intolerance, no matter what denomination. He also cautioned her about some other things too, but that's a different story!!
Good point, however, the laws here in the states are a bit different. This is how it works here:
The Actual or Substantial Harm StandardCourts applying this standard will restrict a parent's religious activities only if the other parent proves that those activities cause substantial or actual harm to the child. This standard is used in many states, including California, Colorado, Florida, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Maryland, Massachusetts, Montana, Nebraska, New Jersey, New York, North Dakota, Ohio, Rhode Island, Utah, Vermont and Washington.
Some states, such as Maryland and Ohio, may use the term "actual harm" in one case and "substantial harm" in another, even when the facts are similar. Other states treat actual harm and substantial harm as two separate standards. This may sound confusing, but in reality, the difference between the terms is minimal, and courts often use the language interchangeably. Just remember this: No matter what terminology these courts use, they all look for tangible evidence of harm to the child's physical or mental health.
The courts avoid making any ruling with regard to religion in custody battles, but they have shown that they WILL restrict a parent's First Amendment or parenting rights if that parent's religious practices are harmful to the child now and/or in the future. In this instance, it is not a stretch to prove "actual or substantial harm".
For those of you who took exception to how I responded to Navigator?s post, please accept my apologies. I might have been a bit strong, but this thing is entirely personal and it is hard to listen to someone telling me to cool it or that I am "projecting" my own guilt by my actions. I don?t see the reasoning there and stopping to "forgive" these people would be my children's demise. I'll forgive when they repent. Isn't that the way it works?
Best Regards,
Corvin
Keep the flags of protest flying high!!!
The JWs will call you a liar... but you have documented proof and witnesses to the abuse you are protesting.
Maybe make another sign: I am not a liar... ask me for the documentation!
Corvin:
Whilst we feel for you...
Believe me when I say that even the tiniest, most insignificant word or action on my part has been twisted and used against the kids and me that picketing can only be seen as the natural course of things. They have expected me to just sit there and take it . . . to let them do or say whatever they want and just keep quiet. They have counted on that for far too long and it is time to get in people?s faces. It is time to speak the truth.
Statements like this kinda highlight the point.
Have you taken legal counsel on how your actions might be perceived.
If you get yourself locked up over this and Elizabeth taken away, whose fault will it have been?
I'm going to break that down for you.
Please take it as someone caring enough to bother their ass...
...picketing can only be seen as the natural course of things
Do you honestly think the judge is going to buy that?
When you are asked about something they've lied about, you can deny it. If you are asked about picketing, under oath, you cannot. If you are asked about involving a minor (AKA Elizabeth) in your demonstration...
...it is time to get in people?s faces. It is time to speak the truth
How will the judge view that?
Will he feel he's dealing with a rational situation?
Added to that is that you aren't even picketting the congregation that you're primarily concerned with (in connection with Elizabeth)
On the contrary, the time is to set aside your own anger and feelings of personal affront, and concentrate on Elizabeth.
When you're clear of the courts you may have better opportunity, but right now you probably need to re-think your strategy...
If Elizabeth wasn't involved in the outcome, I'd be cheering you on, along with Danny Hazard. Your circumstances don't place you in that position yet, though (and notice that I say "yet").
Hopefully you're seeing red enough to focus on what I've highlighted for you.
Elizabeth is surely your primary focus here!!!
Do what you need to do Corvin. The JWS have hidden and lied to their own people ,it needs to come out some where. If it is protesting or putting a stamp on their heads to see the suffering of the children and stop the lies so be it.
Corvin:
My applause goes out to you. I'm glad someone has the courage to stand up for what they believe in, and for their children, instead of just crawling off under and a rock with their families & doing a slow fade. You and I think so much alike it's scary. If I may ask, where in the USA are you located? I'd love to see you in action!!
Wing Commander :)
Littletoe, you are very cautious. So much so, however, that nothing would get done in behalf of Elizabeth or Elese or Nancy. The laws in England must be very silly to have a father locked up for protesting and defending his children against lies and slander . . . exposing the lies and the slander. Oh yes, that's right. I knew there was a reason some of you left and came over here.
LIttletoe, in the US, protesting and demonstrating is an accepted and proven method for getting others to look at issues. It gets people involved in making change happen. It is not radical, but respected if done with dignity and composure. When there is documentation to support your protest, it is honored by even the courts. That is why protesting is one of our rights here in the states.
Littletoe, you intellectualize alot of things and you use alot of words to say what you want to say, but hey, if you only use five words to say it when you could have used 20, you just aren't trying hard enough.
Elsewhere understands and covers all angles when he said: "The JWs will call you a liar... but you have documented proof and witnesses to the abuse you are protesting. Maybe make another sign: I am not a liar... ask me for the documentation!"
Kind Regards,
Corvin
My applause goes out to you. I'm glad someone has the courage to stand up for what they believe in, and for their children, instead of just crawling off under and a rock with their families & doing a slow fade. You and I think so much alike it's scary. If I may ask, where in the USA are you located? I'd love to see you in action!!Wing Commander :)
El Cajon, California. (east county, san diego)
my email is: [email protected]
