If its good, God did it... if its bad Satan did it.... (page 15)

LittleToe

Derek:
I think you'd like it.
It identifies at least two source documents for Genesis. One attributes creation to Elohim, and the other to YHWH.
Elohim (God) comes across as logical (Genesis 1:1 - 2:3)
YHWH (Lord) comes across as a little more temperamental (Gen.2:4 - 4:26)

There are other places within those chapters where they intermingle, but broadly speaking those are the different passages.
It looks like both accounts were viewed as holy, and so both were kept but stitched together (under this hypothesis).

I agree with what you have to say about reading the passage with bias.
We all take a certain colouring into it. Trying to unpick that is difficult.
I also like the way you've pointed out (to Ozzie) the difficulties of letting one book define the meaning of another, within the canon called "The Bible". I see a similar occurance of interpretation with the one place the bible uses the name "Lucifer". Is it really "Satan", as so many assume???

I take it that you're catching breath to savour demolishing FMZ's viewpoint?
LOL

Narkissos

Nothing in the text of Job identifies the "adversary" with the serpent in Genesis. In fact, when God asks him where he has been, he answers: "From roving about on the earth, and from walking up and down in it." This is certainly not the serpent who's been condemned to crawl on his belly. But like the serpent, this adversary gets a hard time from religious types too. In fact it is God who brings up the subject of Job, and it is he who initiates the bet.

Fully agreed. I'd just like to add that in Job (as in Zechariah 3, which is very similar) satan is not a personal name, just a functional title (with the article in Hebrew, hassatan = "the satan") for a subordinate character who plays a definite role (something like the prosecutor or witness for prosecution) in Yhwh's court. This satan is man's adversary before God, not God's adversary at all.

In the Hebrew Bible the only exception is 1 Chronicles 21, where the anarthrous satan is likely used as a personal name ("Satan"). There he is charged with the "bad work" of tempting David, which was Yhwh's own work in the earlier narrative (2 Samuel 24).

myelaine

Little Toe,

Substitute Christ for Tree of Life...brilliant!

Sweetp0985,

God knew there was a difference in the countenance of His children(spiritually), and He called to A & E because they were ashamed. He approched them as a Father would approach a child.

FMZ,

You and I have the potential to be "like" our fathers.

Funkyderek,

The Genesis account seems to show a picture of a Father and two children. The Father fore-warned the children of what could happen if they touched the tree of good and evil, but like children(without complete knowledge) and impatience, they wanted to be like their Father. It was to their downfall, but they made the choice to disobey the knowledge and forsake the love that that knowledge was provided with. They had to suffer the consequenses, they couldn't eat from the tree of life any more. Therefore they no longer were able to commune with God the way that He intended. They became seperated from His all powerful protection and direction. They themselves chose to be "adult" (make life choices), without full knowledge. God set them out of the garden A. because He could not live beside them because of sin and B. so that they could live the life which they chose. And the rest, they say, is history.

michelle

funkyderek

The Genesis account seems to show a picture of a Father and two children. The Father fore-warned the children of what could happen if they touched the tree of good and evil, but like children(without complete knowledge) and impatience, they wanted to be like their Father. It was to their downfall, but they made the choice to disobey the knowledge and forsake the love that that knowledge was provided with.

The account explicitly states that before they ate from the "tree of knowledge of good and evil", they didn't know the difference between good and evil. How could they possibly be expected to make the right choice, especially when the tree was called the "tree of knowledge of good and evil". Who were they supposed to believe? Someone who said it would give them knowledge of good and evil or someone who said it would kill them? And what actually happened?

They had to suffer the consequenses, they couldn't eat from the tree of life any more.

That was not a consequence. That was a punishment actively and deliberately imposed on them by God, because he didn't want the man to live forever.

Therefore they no longer were able to commune with God the way that He intended.

Apparently because he didn't intend them to be able to think for themselves. Once they had become "like God", he no longer wanted them as pets.

They became seperated from His all powerful protection and direction.

That was God's choice. He could have forgiven them. Does the almighty creator of the universe really need to wait thousands of years, then sacrifice his own son, just to forgive somebody?

They themselves chose to be "adult" (make life choices), without full knowledge.

They were created without this knowledge. The only way they could get it was from the tree. God knew this, and set up a situation where they were guaranteed to fail.

God set them out of the garden A. because He could not live beside them because of sin

Again, his choice. In my book, that would make him a bad father. Abusers often blame their victims.

and B. so that they could live the life which they chose.

They didn't choose it. They were innocents, tricked into breaking an arbitrary rule and punished severely for it.

And the rest, they say, is history.

It's nothing of the sort. It's all mythology, which is fortunate. Living in a world ruled by such a egomaniacal capricious dictator would be truly frightening.

Terry

QUOTE: The account explicitly states that before they ate from the "tree of knowledge of good and evil", they didn't know the difference between good and evil. How could they possibly be expected to make the right choice, especially when the tree was called the "tree of knowledge of good and evil". Who were they supposed to believe? Someone who said it would give them knowledge of good and evil or someone who said it would kill them? And what actually happened?

COMMENT: I heard a JW explain it this way:

A man can know his wife or a man can "know" his wife. The experience one has enhances the knowing beyond mere theory.

myelaine

Funkyderek,

Who were they supposed to believe? Someone who said it would give them knowledge of good and evil or someone who said it would kill them? And what actually happened?

The Father told them both of these things. They chose to listen to a stranger instead of their Father.

michelle

JT

I am sure God wanted to teach Adam and Eve the difference between good and evil in his own time. Satan pushed the time forward.

%%%

could the poster please provide the scriptual ref to this teaching that satan altered the time table of God

thanks

funkyderek

The Father told them both of these things. They chose to listen to a stranger instead of their Father.

As children often do. Don't you think the punishment was a bit harsh?

Maybe you have time now to consider the analogy I presented earlier:

You have to leave your children alone for a few minutes and you tell them not to watch television, because it will make them sick. While you are gone, one of your neighbours sees the children not watching TV and asks them why not. They tell him: "Because Mommy said it will make us sick". The neighbour says: "That's nonsense. TV won't make you sick. It'll entertain you and teach you about the world." So, these children being innocent, turn on the TV and are suddenly entertained and educated. When you come back, you discover that the TV was used, so you poison your children.
Firstly, I want to know if you consider that a good analogy for the Adam & Eve myth, and if not, why not. Secondly, do you think the children being poisoned is fair, as they were warned of the consequences?

JT

or there is the story of JOB where satan personally killed his family off and struck him with all sorts of misery just to try and break his integrity.

##

this is so true , problem is god told him it was ok, so if i ask you can i pimp slap a persons wife and then i proceed to pimp slap her and she says to me why did you do and i say

YOU HUSBAND TO ME TO, BUT NOT TO KNOCK OUT ANY OF YOUR FRONT TEETH-

i am sure that she will be happy knowing that her husband instructed me NOT TO KNOCK OUT HER FRONT TEETH - yea right

If its good, God did it... if its bad Satan did it....

Share this